Pink Floyd Founder Roger Waters: BDS is One of "Most
Admirable" Displays of Resistance in the World
By
Democracy Now!
Posted September 15,
2017
Part 2:
"The Occupation of the American Mind":
Documentary Looks at Israel's PR War in the
United States
Roger
Waters Criticizes Senate Bill Criminalizing BDS
& Radiohead's Recent Concert in Tel Aviv
Transcript
AMY
GOODMAN:
Today, we spend the hour with the
world-famous British musician Roger Waters,
founding member of the iconic rock band Pink
Floyd. The band is perhaps most well known
for their records The Wall and
Dark Side of the Moon. Roger Waters
recently released his first new studio album
in 25 years and is touring stadiums across
the country.
But
the tour has not been without controversy.
Waters is scheduled to play on Friday and
Saturday nights in Long Island, despite
attempts by Nassau County officials to shut
down the concerts, which will take place at
the county-owned Nassau Coliseum. The
reason? Water’s outspoken support for
BDS, the Boycott,
Divestment and Sanctions movement targeting
Israel over its treatment of Palestinians.
Nassau County officials had claimed the
concerts would violate a local law which
prohibits the county from doing business
with any company participating in the
economic boycott of Israel.
Waters has also been met by protests on many
other stops on the tour. Ahead of his
concert in Miami, the Greater Miami Jewish
Federation took out a full-page ad in the
Miami Herald with the headline
"Anti-Semitism and Hatred Are Not Welcome in
Miami." The group also pressured the city of
Miami Beach to prevent a group of
schoolchildren from appearing on stage with
Waters to sing during the concert.
Despite all this, Roger Waters has continued
to speak out. Last week, he wrote a
piece
in The New York Times. The op-ed
was headlined "Congress Shouldn’t Silence
Human Rights Advocates." In the op-ed, he
criticized a bill being considered in the
Senate to silence supporters of
BDS. Waters
writes, quote, "By endorsing this
McCarthyite bill, senators would take away
Americans’ First Amendment rights in order
to protect Israel from nonviolent pressure
to end its 50-year-old occupation of
Palestinian territory and other abuses of
Palestinian rights."
Well, Democracy Now!'s Nermeen
Shaikh and I spoke to Roger Waters on
Wednesday. I began by asking him to respond
to a recent statement by Howard Kopel, a
Nassau County legislator, who attempted to
shut down Roger Waters' upcoming concerts in
Long Island. He called Waters a, quote,
"virulent anti-semite" and said, quote, "[E]mbrace
the BDS movement
and Nassau will not do business with you.
There is no room for hatred in Nassau."
ROGER
WATERS:
Well, the first thing that leaps out of
that statement is the notion that I
might be in some way anti-Semitic or
against Jewish people or against the
Jewish religion or against anything that
has Jewishness attached to it, because
I’m not. I’m clearly not. You know, they
comb through my past, and they find it
very difficult to substantiate that
accusation. But they use that accusation
as they do with anybody who supports
BDS or anybody
who criticizes Israeli foreign policy or
the occupation. That is their standard
go-to response, is to call you an
anti-Semite, to start calling you names,
and, hopefully, to discredit you.
As
far as Nassau Coliseum is concerned, and
the specific thing there, I was hoping
that the state’s attorney, I guess—I’ve
forgotten his name for the moment—was
was going to try and take the case to
court, and was going to actually
litigate with the management of Nassau
Coliseum on the grounds that they were
breaking some law, because it would have
given us a chance to have our day in
court and for what I consider to be the
side of reason and dialogue and decency
and the law and the Constitution and
freedom and rights and being grown up
about things. I think they—eventually,
they’ve looked at it and thought it was
too dangerous, because if they had gone
to court with us, I think there’s no
question but that we would have won the
case. And it would have provided a
precedent to stop legislatures around
the rest of the United States from
bringing frivolous cases in similar
circumstances.
So, guys, I don’t know where you are,
but I’m really sorry that you didn’t
bring this out into the open, because it
bears discussion that they’re attempting
to take away the First Amendment rights
of American citizens and others.
AMY
GOODMAN:
But you are playing Friday and Saturday
night at Nassau Coliseum.
ROGER
WATERS:
Yeah, we are. And I really look forward
to it. And we will be playing, you know,
to great audiences, who will completely
understand, as well, that there is no
hatred in my show. I mean, I’m somewhat
critical of the current administration
in a satirical and playful way, I like
to think. But my show is all about the
idea that if this—if this race, the
human race, is to survive even the next
50 or 100 years, we need to start
looking at the possibility of the
transcendental nature of love, and we
have to start looking after one another
and recognizing our responsibility to
others, which is what
BDS is about, really.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
So, Roger Waters, you wrote recently
this
op-ed piece
for The New York Times
headlined "Congress Shouldn’t Silence
Human Rights Advocates," and this is
about the proposed bill, the Israel
Anti-Boycott Act. So could you explain
what the act calls for and what your own
experience has been with it?
ROGER
WATERS:
Well, yeah. As I read it—I haven’t read
the complete draft, but—and I know it
sounds ludicrous, but it’s true. There
is a bill before Congress, S 720, which
seeks to criminalize support for
Boycott, Divestments and Sanctions,
which is a nonviolent international
protest movement to protest the
occupation of Palestinian land that’s
been going on for 50 years. And they
want to make it a felony to support
BDS, as far as
I understand it, with criminal penalties
that are, in my view, absurd. Somebody
like me, for instance, if the bill was
passed in its current drafting, would be
subject to a fine of between $250,000
and $1 million and a term of
imprisonment of up to 20 years—for
peaceful, nonviolent political protest
on behalf of basic human rights for
beleaguered people, which is absurd,
clearly. When you put it like that, you
think, "Well, that’s ridiculous." Why
would Congress—why would Congress even
be using any of the precious time in the
legislature to even discuss such a
thing, contravening as it does the First
Amendment to the Constitution, which is
one of the basic rights that American
citizens have, freedom of speech, to say
what they believe.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
Well, explain your own involvement with
BDS. How did
you come to learn of it and then to
support it in the way that you have?
ROGER
WATERS:
Well, many years ago, in 2006, in fact,
I was doing a tour, and I was asked to
play in Israel, to do a gig in Tel Aviv.
And I’ll try and tell this very quickly.
And I started getting—and I agreed to do
a gig in Tel Aviv. And I immediately
started getting emails from people
saying, "Are you sure you want to do
this?" And then I was told about
BDS, which was
started by Palestinian civil society in
2005. And I engaged in a dialogue—that
famous word—with these people and with
Palestinians, and they convinced me that
I should cancel the gig that we were
going to play in Tel Aviv.
But as a kind of an act of compromise, I
moved the gig to a place called Neve
Shalom, or Wahat as-Salam, I think it
is, in Arabic, which is an agricultural
community where many different
religions—Christians, Jews, Muslims,
Druze—all live together. Their children
all go to school together. And, you
know, so it’s an—they grow chickpeas for
a living. And so we did the gig there,
outdoors. And it was a huge success.
Sixty thousand Israelis came. No
Palestinians, of course, because they
are not allowed to travel, but—which is
kind of the start of my story. At the
end of that gig, I stood up, and they’d
been hugely enthusiastic, the audience.
And I said, "You are the generation of
young Israelis who have the
responsibility to make peace with your
neighbors and to figure out this
terrible mess that your country has got
itself into." And there was complete
silence. It was like—I saw the 60,000
kids all looking at me, going, "What is
he talking about? This is not in the
script." So, anyway, I went back the
next year, at the invitation of
UNRWA.
AMY
GOODMAN:
The United Nations agency?
ROGER
WATERS:
Yes, exactly. And a lovely woman called
Allegra Pacheco, who—and we went all
over the West Bank. We didn’t go to
Gaza, unfortunately, but we went
everywhere else that we could think of
in the West Bank. And I was
flabbergasted. I mean, I had never
been—I had never been into—I’d never
seen that kind of repression in
action—you know, the roads that the
Palestinians aren’t allowed to drive on.
And they start showing me the
development of the settlements. This is
10 years ago now, 11 years ago now. And
so—and I went and talked to people in
the refugee camps. And I determined,
when I left there, that I would do
everything that I could, until there was
some kind of justice for the people who
live there, to help them, which is why
we’re here today. So, and the fight goes
on. But I’m happy to say that it’s a
fight that is being won by
BDS. This is
why there are people beginning to picket
my gigs. They haven’t done for the last
10 or 11 years, but now they are,
because they’re beginning to panic, I
think.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Roger Waters, founding member of the iconic
rock band Pink Floyd. We’ll be back with him
in a minute and look at the documentary he
narrates, The Occupation of the American
Mind: Israel’s Public Relations War in the
United States.
[break]
AMY
GOODMAN:
Roger Waters singing "Pigs," live at the
Barclays Center in Brooklyn, New York,
earlier this week.
AMY
GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org, The War and Peace
Report. I’m Amy Goodman. As we continue
our conversation, we go now to an excerpt
of—we are speaking with Roger Waters, the
famous British musician, founding member of
the iconic rock band Pink Floyd, Waters the
narrator of the recent documentary titled
The Occupation of the American Mind:
Israel’s Public Relations War in the United
States.
ROGER
WATERS:
Over the course of 51 days, the Israeli
military dropped nearly 20,000 tons of
explosive on Gaza, a densely populated
area the size of Philadelphia, killing
over 2,000 Palestinians and wounding
tens of thousands more. The overwhelming
majority of these casualties were
civilians.
HAMISH
MACDONALD:
This strip of land is being bombarded
from the air, sea and land.
DIANA
MAGNAY:
Israel launched at least 160 strikes on
the Gaza Strip.
RICHARD
ENGEL:
And there’s one less hospital in Gaza
now. Israel today flattened Wafa
Hospital.
ROGER
WATERS:
The sheer scale of the attacks sparked
outrage and condemnation around the
world.
MARK
BROOME:
Israel’s month-long pounding of Gaza has
shocked many people around the world.
Mass demonstrations have been held in
many of the world’s major cities.
ROGER
WATERS:
But in the United States, the story was
different. Polls show the American
people holding firm in their support for
Israel.
ANDERSON
COOPER:
This is the latest
CNN/ORC
poll of Americans, shows 57 percent of
those polled say Israel’s action in Gaza
is justified, 34 percent say
unjustified.
ROGER
WATERS:
These numbers were striking, but they
weren’t new. Over the course of a
conflict in which Palestinian casualties
have far outnumbered Israeli casualties,
the American people have consistently
shown far more sympathy for Israelis
than for Palestinians.
PETER
HART:
It’s very difficult to divorce public
opinion on any question from the media
coverage that people rely on to form
opinions. And I think the most prevalent
lesson from looking at the coverage is
that the coverage tends to see this
conflict from the Israeli side.
AMY
GOODMAN:
That last voice, Peter Hart, the National
Coalition Against Censorship. That a clip
from the film The Occupation of the
American Mind: Israel’s Public Relations War
in the United States, narrated by our
guest, Roger Waters, the musician.
Well, on Wednesday, Nermeen Shaikh and I
interviewed Roger Waters and Sut Jhally,
professor of communication at the University
of Massachusetts, founder and executive
director of the Media Education Foundation,
which produced the documentary. I asked Sut
Jhally why he chose to make the film.
SUT
JHALLY:
Well, it started, actually, quite a
while ago, and the reason for it is that
American public opinion is so far
outside the bounds of world opinion when
it comes to—when it comes to Israel. As
we talked before, I mean, the moment you
start—you break—you start to talk about
this, there’s an attempt to silence you.
So you’re actually not allowed to—you’re
not allowed to talk about it. And then,
actually, once you do talk about it, you
realize that Americans have a very
warped sense of the conflict. I mean, I
learned this from my own students, as
well as from public opinion polls, that
most Americans think that, in fact, it’s
the Palestinians who are illegally
occupying someone else’s land in the
Middle East.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Well, talk about legally—talk about what
in fact is happening in the Middle East.
SUT
JHALLY:
Well, it’s such a clear kind of instance
of, you know, colonization. We’ve just
had 50 years of occupation, Israel’s
occupation of the West Bank and, until
recently, of Gaza. And that’s actually
very, very clear, because there’s also
this instant—Americans think it’s so
complicated. That’s actually—when I talk
to my students, they always say it’s too
complicated. And I just actually explain
to them, you know, in a few sentences,
that this actually is a very, very
simple conflict. And what—and when the
conflict is that simple, what you have
to do is you have to make it more
complicated. And that’s the function of
public relations.
And so, that’s what we focus on. We
focus on the public relations campaign
in the United States to essentially
confuse the American public about what
was going on, so there will be no
pressure coming from the public on this.
And in that sense, you know—and we say
this in the film—the occupation of
Palestine also depends upon an
occupation of American public opinion,
that unless the American government is
aboard with this and acts as a protector
of Israel, then that occupation is not
possible.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
Let’s turn to another clip from The
Occupation of the American Mind,
featuring our guest, Sut Jhally.
SUT
JHALLY:
Israel can saturate the media with
its spokespeople, but there’s still
the problem of massive Palestinian
casualties showing up on television
screens. You can’t make those images
go away. An Israeli official
actually said, "In the war of
pictures, we lose. So you need to
correct, explain or balance it in
other ways."
Here, again, the Luntz document
spells out which talking points have
been most effective in spinning the
brutal reality of Palestinian
casualties. He says the first thing
the pro-Israeli spokespeople should
do is to express empathy for the
innocent victims.
DAN
GILLERMAN:
Unfortunately, innocents do get
hurt. And we—we really grieve that.
PRIME
MINISTER
BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU:
We’re sad for every civilian
casualty.
MICHAEL
OREN:
The entire situation is tragic.
SUT
JHALLY:
Once you’ve done that, Luntz says,
you also have to get people to
empathize with Israelis, by
describing what life is like for
them living in constant fear of
Hamas rocket attacks. So, again and
again, we hear the focus-tested
phrase that the rockets are raining
down on Israel.
MICHAEL
OREN:
We have thousands of rockets raining
down on our civilians.
HILLARY
CLINTON:
Rockets were raining down on Israel.
NORMAN
SOLOMON:
Any advertising executive will tell
you the essence of propaganda is
repetition.
GRETA
VAN
SUSTEREN:
Rockets raining down on southern
Israel.
FOX
NEWS
ANCHOR:
Rockets raining down on Israel.
NEWS
ANCHOR:
Well, Hamas rockets rained down on
Israeli border towns.
SUT
JHALLY:
Then, Luntz tells PR spokespeople to
turn the tables and ask the American
people, "What would you do?"
PRIME
MINISTER
BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU:
So what would you do in the United
States?
RON
DERMER:
Will you imagine what America would
do if it were facing a similar
threat?
NACHMAN
SHAI:
We always try to ask you the
question we ask ourselves: What will
you do?
PRIME
MINISTER
BENJAMIN
NETANYAHU:
What would you do?
MARK
REGEV:
What would you do, if more than
3,000 rockets had been fired on your
cities?
SEAN
HANNITY:
What would you do? Three thousand
rockets.
MARK
REGEV:
What would you do, if terrorists
were tunneling under your frontier?
SEAN
HANNITY:
What would you do if three kids are
kidnapped because of a tunnel
network?
YOUSEF
MUNAYYER:
What sort of question is this? Of
course, anybody would act to defend
themselves against unprovoked
aggression. But it is a question
that is completely devoid of any
context. What drives a society to a
point where, after multiple
devastating wars, they continue to
resist with these most feeble
methods? They don’t want you to ask
that question. They don’t want you
to ask what is behind this, what’s
the history here, who are these
people, where did they come from,
why are they so desperate. No, they
want you to understand Israeli
behavior. Israeli behavior is always
characterized as a reaction to
unprovoked violence.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
So that’s an excerpt from The
Occupation of the American Mind.
And the last voice was Yousef Munayyer
of the U.S. Campaign for Palestinian
Rights. We also heard from Norman
Solomon. And this is another excerpt
from the documentary.
ROGER
WATERS:
Two years after the Lebanon
invasion, the American Jewish
Congress sponsored a conference in
Jerusalem to devise a formal public
relations strategy, known in Hebrew
as hasbara. Participants
included PR and advertising
executives, media specialists,
journalists and leaders of major
Jewish groups. According to a
brochure from the congress, "No
single event brought home the need
for a more effective hasbara, or
information program, more
persuasively than the 1982 war in
Lebanon and the events that
followed." As one conference
participant put it, "Israel is no
longer perceived to be 'little
David,' but Goliath steamrolling
across the map."
The primary aim of the conference
was to develop strategies to spin
unpopular Israeli policies and to
counter negative press coverage by
shaping the media frame in advance.
"News doesn’t just jump into a
camera," a conference delegate said.
"It’s directed, it’s managed, it’s
made accessible." Israel-based
advertising executive Martin Fenton
would put it in even more blunt
terms: "'Propaganda' is not a dirty
word," he said. "Face it: We are in
the game of changing people’s minds,
of making them think differently. To
accomplish that, we need
propaganda."
The conference was chaired by U.S.
advertising executive Carl
Spielvogel, the legendary ad man who
created the highly acclaimed Miller
Lite beer ads in the 1970s.
SUT
JHALLY:
The choice of Spielvogel makes
perfect sense. He’s known as a
master of image inversion and
rebranding. The ad man responsible
for transforming Miller Lite, which
had been viewed before as a woman’s
beer, into a manly beer the tough
guys would drink.
MAN
IN BAR 1:
But the best part is that it tastes
so great.
MAN
IN BAR 2:
The best part is, it’s less filling.
MAN
IN BAR 1:
Nah, tastes great!
MAN
IN BAR 2:
Less filling!
SUT
JHALLY:
His job with Israel would require
the same kind of rebranding, only in
the opposite direction: to help
soften the image of a country that’s
coming to be seen as a bully. So he
recommends creating a Cabinet post
dedicated exclusively to explaining
policy, whose job would not be
setting policy, but presenting it in
the most attractive way to the rest
of the world.
NORMON
SOLOMON:
Classic PR is to say the problem is
not the policy, it’s the
presentation. When the policies are
so reprehensible that many people
become critical, rather than
acknowledge there’s anything wrong
with the policy, there’s a doubling
down on the PR effort.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
So that was another clip from The
Occupation of the American Mind.
And that last voice was Norman Solomon
of the Institute for Public Accuracy,
the film, of course, narrated by our
guest, Roger Waters. But, Sut Jhally, I
want to ask you about these clips, the
way in which the Israeli state, working
with different media organizations, has
changed, as you argue, American public
opinion, or swayed it in this way to be
sympathetic only to the Israeli side.
Now, this strategy of hasbara,
the attempt to influence U.S. public
opinion, Israeli supporters argue that
such initiatives are attempted by
practically all countries in the world,
they all have lobbying firms in the U.S.
What is it that distinguishes
hasbara from the propaganda, in
fact, that’s attempted by every country
attempting to influence U.S. foreign
policy?
SUT
JHALLY:
And that’s true. Everyone tries to mold
perception in some way for their
own—their own actions. The difference in
this case is the public—is that Israeli
public opinion—or, Israeli public
relations is so closely connected to the
interests of the American state. And so
they’re not pushing against the American
policy. And it’s American policy working
hand in hand with Israeli policy, as
well. In the film, you know, we try and
we—because we really want to make clear
that this is not about an Israel lobby
that’s manipulating—you know, that’s
manipulating politicians and the public.
The reason why Israeli public relations
works is because it goes hand in hand
with American elite opinion. And if that
didn’t happen, then the public relations
wouldn’t work in that way. And we know
that that’s—that those two things go
together, because when American elite
opinion differs from what Israel would
do, oftentimes American elite opinion
prevails, as in the discussion around
the Iran policy. The Israel lobby really
wanted to push a different line on that.
But that was one place where the
interests of the lobby diverged from the
interests of the American state. And so,
when we talk about this, it’s not
about—it’s not about, you know, a lobby
that has all this power. It’s about an
Israel—it’s about a lobby that goes hand
in hand with the interests of the state.
And if that—
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
So, in other words, even—so, if U.S.
elite opinion were to change, this
precise strategy, hasbara,
would be relatively ineffective.
SUT
JHALLY:
Well, it relies upon the American state
to go along with it, which is why
American public opinion is so important,
which is why you have to control
American public opinion. Not only do you
have to control Senate and the House,
which they do, but you also have to make
sure there’s no pressure on politicians,
which is why you have to control public
opinion, which is why we say you need to
occupy American public opinion to make
the occupation possible, as well.
AMY
GOODMAN:
When it comes to this film, where was it
shown?
SUT
JHALLY:
We’ve had a huge amount of difficulty
getting this shown. It’s been shown
almost nowhere in the United States.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Elsewhere?
SUT
JHALLY:
It’s been shown in other—we showed it in
Mexico City. It’s been shown in
Brussels. It’s been shown—I just came
from a screening in Beirut. We showed it
in London. It’s screened in—on
television stations in Scandinavia, in
Europe. Russia Today showed it. Al
Jazeera showed it. So, it’s been shown
outside of this country.
AMY
GOODMAN:
And the reaction to this film when you
attempt to get it to play in the United
States?
SUT
JHALLY:
I mean, it’s the way that censorship
works, which is silence. We submitted it
to film festivals, which is the first
way you try and get some publicity and
some visibility. We did not get it
accepted into one film festival in the
United States, and therefore that means
it’s very difficult then to make the
next step, which is how do you get it
into theaters, how do you get it into
television, how do you get media
reviews. I mean, we’ve—there’s been,
around this issue—and it’s not just this
film, but on this issue. It’s like
there’s a web of silence around it.
And it’s not just, you know, the
right-wing media. It’s not just Fox. And
it goes everywhere. I mean, it’s the
one—it’s the one topic that even
so-called liberal media won’t touch. In
the film, you know, we had the example
of Rachel Maddow, who is supposed to be
the most, you know, progressive voice on
television, and yet refuses to deal with
this issue.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Let’s go to another clip from The
Occupation of the American Mind.
SUT
JHALLY:
Look at how American media covered
Israel’s 2014 attack on Gaza. A
keyword search of all the major
networks showed that over the course
of the 51-day assault, Israel’s
ongoing military siege and blockade
of Gaza were barely mentioned,
compared to the thousands of times
Hamas rocket attacks on Israel were
mentioned.
JAKE
TAPPER:
Why is Hamas launching missiles into
population centers of Israel?
SUT
JHALLY:
The basic propaganda frame is built
into the very assumptions
journalists bring to the table.
JAKE
TAPPER:
Since Israel pulled out of Gaza in
2005, 8,000 rockets have been fired
from Gaza into Israel.
SUT
JHALLY:
This is how propaganda works. It
works by getting your words in the
mouths of other people, especially
the mouths of supposedly objective
media commentators.
DAVID
GREGORY:
I’m wondering, though, whether
you’re outraged by the conduct of
Hamas, starting the conflict by
firing rockets, building tunnels to
kill and kidnap Israelis, being more
than willing to sacrifice
Palestinian lives by embedding them
into—into their own kind of arsenal,
and using them, as Israel contends,
as human shields. Do you have a
level of outrage at Hamas itself?
SUT
JHALLY:
It doesn’t seem like propaganda at
all. It just seems like news. And
this goes across all the major
media, including the supposedly most
liberal. Look at Rachel Maddow on
MSNBC,
who’s known as the leading
progressive voice on mainstream
television. She did only four
segments on the war. And during
these few segments, she never once
mentioned Israel’s ongoing
occupation of the West Bank or its
siege and blockade of Gaza, and
never once mentioned the fact that
the U.S. has armed Israel with the
very weapons that were being used
against a defenseless civilian
population, instead choosing to
frame the invasion as part of a
senseless cycle of violence
perpetrated by both sides.
RACHEL
MADDOW:
It’s been a constant cycle of
fighting between Israel and Hamas
for the past several years in Gaza.
And the fighting and the cause of
the fighting feel terribly familiar,
because this is basically a
recurring war. And if it feels like
déjà vu, feels like, "Ugh,
I’ve heard all of this before," you
are right, because this really does
keep happening, over and over and
over again.
RULA
JEBREAL:
Rachel Maddow, the most important
woman on MSNBC,
the leader when it comes to
politics, in six weeks of war, never
mentioned the word "blockade,"
"occupation," "illegal settlements,"
never mentioned the support that
Congress have for Israel,
unconditional amount of money,
billions of dollars. What is that?
What a disappointment! Our media
operations, national media, is a
scandal when it comes to Israel.
AMY
GOODMAN:
An excerpt from The Occupation of
the American Mind, the documentary
that is narrated by Roger Waters, that’s
produced by Sut Jhally. That last voice,
former MSNBC
analyst Rula Jebreal, who is an
Italian-Palestinian journalist. Let’s go
for a moment to the contrast, Sut, that
you bring into this film, which is the
international media.
JON
SNOW:
Mark Regev, how does killing
children on a beach contribute to
that purpose? What was the point of
bombing the al-Wafa Hospital, for
goodness’ sake? ... There are grave
uncertainties—
MARK
REGEV:
No, no.
JON
SNOW:
—about whether you’re acting within
the law.
MARK
REGEV:
No, no, no. I disagree.
JON
SNOW:
Oh, yes. Oh, yes. You are
deliberately targeting—
MARK
REGEV:
No, I reject that.
JON
SNOW:
—neighborhoods in which you know
there are women and children. ...
You’ve tried everything with Gaza.
You’ve besieged it for seven years.
The people live an intolerable and
ghastly life, and you know that
better than anybody. Why don’t you
try one other thing: talking? Why
not talk? Why not be brave and talk
directly with them? Why not?
AMY
GOODMAN:
That’s another excerpt from The
Occupation of the American Mind.
Sut Jhally, you produced this film. Talk
about the contrast of the media
coverage.
SUT
JHALLY:
I mean, the contrast is quite striking
when you look at—when you look at—you
don’t have to go to other parts, you
know, really foreign parts of the world.
Just look to the way it’s covered in the
United Kingdom. That’s a striking
difference. And part of the reason—and,
I mean, the clip we show—that clip we
use was of Jon Snow, doing what a
journalist should be doing, which is
asking questions. So, in the U.K.,
journalism actually still exists. On
this issue, in the United States,
journalism has ceased to do what it’s
supposed to do, because it has just
succumbed to public relations.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Sut Jhally, founder of the Media Education
Foundation, which produced the film The
Occupation of the American Mind: Israel’s
Public Relations War in the United States.
When we come back from break, we return to
Sut Jhally and the musician Roger Waters, in
a minute.
[break]
AMY
GOODMAN:
Roger Waters, performing "We Shall
Overcome," accompanied by the teenage
cellist Alexander Rohatyn, here in the
Democracy Now! studios.
AMY
GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org, The War and Peace
Report. I’m Amy Goodman, as we continue
our conversation with British musician Roger
Waters, founding member of the iconic rock
band Pink Floyd. Nermeen Shaikh and I spoke
to him and Sut Jhally of the Media Education
Foundation about their documentary, The
Occupation of the American Mind: Israel’s
Public Relations War in the United States,
and Waters’ support for the
BDS movement, the
Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement.
Last week, Roger Waters wrote a
piece
in The New York Times headlined
"Congress Shouldn’t Silence Human Rights
Advocates." In the op-ed, he criticized a
bill being considered in the Senate to
silence supporters of BDS.
The bill’s author, Maryland Democratic
Senator Ben Cardin, was recently questioned
by The Intercept’s Ryan Grim.
SEN.
BEN
CARDIN:
We are very sensitive to maintain
freedom of speech and expression.
Nothing in our bill goes—hurts that.
RYAN
GRIM:
The ACLU
says that kind of the way that it’s
written would lend itself towards
felony penalties for people if they
participated in these kind of —
SEN.
BEN
CARDIN:
I didn’t think we had criminal—if we
had criminal sanctions in it, we’d
go to Judiciary. I don’t think we
have—I don’t think—
RYAN
GRIM:
OK.
SEN.
BEN
CARDIN:
I just don’t think that’s in our
bill. You know, you’re catching me
without—
RYAN
GRIM:
Sure, sure.
SEN.
BEN
CARDIN:
I think I know the bill fairly well.
I don’t believe we have
criminalized. I think our issue is
U.S. participation in international
organizations—
RYAN
GRIM:
Right.
SEN.
BEN
CARDIN:
—speaking out against the U.N.
actions. I think that’s the bill.
AMY
GOODMAN:
So, Senator Ben Cardin, the co-sponsor
of the bill. Roger Waters, you’re
laughing.
ROGER
WATERS:
Well, yeah. I mean, that is funny. You
know, that deserves to be on a comedy
show.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Because, of course, there are sanctions
and fines related to this.
ROGER
WATERS:
The guy hasn’t even read the bill he’s
sponsoring.
AMY
GOODMAN:
But, interestingly, even some of the
co-sponsors are changing their views.
New York Senator Gillibrand responded to
a question from her constituents at a
Flushing town hall meeting by saying she
wouldn’t support the bill in its current
form and that she wouldn’t support it
unless the bill’s authors add language
specifying the punishments only extend
to corporations and not to individuals.
That’s according to Crain’s.
ROGER
WATERS:
I know Kirsten Gillibrand a bit. I’ve
met her a couple of times. And I was
absolutely flabbergasted when I saw her
name as a co-sponsor. She was a
co-sponsor of this bill. So, but it—so,
that points to something. And that is
that when a piece of paper comes across
your desk, and you’re a politician, and
you go, "Oh, AIPAC.
It’s from AIPAC.
It’s been drafted by
AIPAC," you just sign it and hand
it back. You don’t even read it. They
don’t even read it. They just go, "Oh,
that’s it. That’s a done deal. Whatever
AIPAC wants,
AIPAC gets.
And that’s all there is"—which is
bizarre, and wrong, obviously.
And I’m really glad that Kirsten
Gillibrand has taken her name off it.
She’s still against
BDS, but almost certainly,
she—almost certainly, she doesn’t know.
She hasn’t traveled enough, though she
did say—to her credit, she did say that
she had a meeting with Netanyahu when on
a visit to Israel. And she asked him a
question of what was his plan for what
should happen in the future. And he
went, "Next." You know?
SUT
JHALLY:
Well, because his plan is to never
leave.
ROGER
WATERS:
Yeah.
SUT
JHALLY:
His plan is to take over the entire
thing.
ROGER
WATERS:
But they can’t say that.
SUT
JHALLY:
Yeah. But in the film, we actually have
some footage of him at a meeting with
his right-wing settler base, where he
thinks no one is listening, essentially
saying that. He said, "We’re never going
to give it back. And don’t worry about
America. I know how to manipulate
America. It’s very, very easy." It’s
very, very telling. And so, from their
perspective, the occupation is never
going to end.
And one of the major ways in which you
can put pressure on is, I think,
precisely through things like
BDS, is
precisely through what’s happening
within the U.S. I think BDS—you know, no
matter what you think of
BDS, as a
rhetorical device, it is superb. It has
been branded in a way that even if
you’re against BDS,
you’re talking about it. And so, I would
really urge everyone to talk as much as
possible about BDS,
because it is such a weapon to use to be
able to raise these issues, especially
with young people. Especially with young
people.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
I just want to say that people who are
critical of BDS
say that Israel is being unfairly
singled out, and there are many other
countries who commit absolutely
egregious violations of human rights
against their own people, and the world
is silent. Now, our guest, Roger Waters,
and other supporters of
BDS have
criticized Radiohead recently for
playing a concert recently in Tel Aviv.
The group’s leader, Thom Yorke,
responded, in part, by saying, quote,
"Playing in a country isn’t the same as
endorsing its government. We’ve played
in Israel for over 20 years through a
succession of governments, so more
liberal than others. As we have in
America. We don’t endorse [Israeli Prime
Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu any more
than Trump, but we still play in
America." So that’s Thom Yorke of
Radiohead. Your response to that?
ROGER
WATERS:
I would say, in answer to Thom Yorke
saying that we’re not supporting the
Israeli government, "Willy-nilly, Thom."
And I’ve said this to him—well, not face
to face, because he won’t talk to me.
But I’ve said to him, "Willy-nilly, you
are. Like, after you did your gig in Tel
Aviv, it was all over the front pages of
Israeli newspapers." And they actually
quote—there were quotes saying, "This is
the best moment for hasbara
that we’ve had in decades. Radiohead
playing has given us so much better
position and so much more power than we
had before they played." Doesn’t matter
what they say in—not that they’re
speaking much about it. They’re being
pretty quiet about it, I think. If
you’ve listened to what Thom Yorke has
said since the gig, it’s—I haven’t seen—
AMY
GOODMAN:
You’ve been going back and forth with
him a lot.
ROGER
WATERS:
What?
AMY
GOODMAN:
You’ve been going back and forth with
him a lot.
ROGER
WATERS:
No, no, no. Before they played, I
contacted him. I wrote him a number of
emails, and I said, "Can we talk about
this?" And so—and then there was a
little bit of to and fro, when he said
that people like me and—oh, well, people
like me—it’s enough, me—have been kind
of throwing mud at them from afar and
not coming for dialogue, which is
nonsense. You know, I entreated him. I
implored him to have a conversation
about it and to talk about the picket
line and to talk about
BDS and to
talk about the situation on the ground,
as well, because I’m sure Thom doesn’t
know. I bet he hasn’t been around the
West Bank. I bet he hasn’t been to Gaza.
I bet he hasn’t actually looked. Because
when you do and you see the way the
Palestinian people are treated by the
occupying army, it breaks your heart,
and you have really no alternative but
to say, "I am going to be part of this."
It’s like Michael Bennett, that Seattle
Seahawk. A number of
NFL players were invited to go to
Israel on a PR—all expenses paid. And
Michael Bennett, to his eternal credit,
and half a dozen of the others went,
"No, I do not want to be"—I mean, he’s a
sporting icon. "I do not want to be used
as part of the hasbara, part of
the whitewashing of that." And see,
sorry, just to finish—and he quotes John
Carlos, you know, who was the athlete in
'68 who stood up and gave the Black
Power salute at the thing. He says,
"It's John"—
AMY
GOODMAN:
In Mexico City Olympics.
ROGER
WATERS:
In Mexico City at the Olympic Games,
very, very bravely and very
controversially. And he says, as John
Carlos says, you know, "As far as
justice is concerned, you’re either in
or you’re out." And he says, "Well, I’m
in." That’s Michael Bennett. And I
thought, "Yeah!" You know, that kind of
commitment to the idea that everybody
should have justice is laudable.
NERMEEN
SHAIKH:
Critics of BDS,
when it comes to Israel, say there are
other very close allies of the
U.S.—Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Pakistan, to
name only a few—who have also waged
egregious violations against their own
people, minorities, to say nothing, for
instance, of non-U.S. allies, of Russia
and China, where people routinely go and
perform and have other forms of cultural
exchange. Now, what—is there anything,
do you think, that distinguishes the
position of Israel and why a
BDS campaign
is more legitimate there than it would
be in these other countries?
ROGER
WATERS:
We’ve been asked by Palestinian civil
society to join them in their struggle
against the occupation of their land,
let’s be clear, OK, land that was laid
out in the U.N. resolutions in 1947 as
land that should be for a Palestinian
state. Whatever your feelings may be
about the creation of the state of
Israel or whatever, the U.N. decided
that partition was a good idea, and
whatever, OK? So—and it’s not happened.
And as Sut just said, it’s been whittled
away, piece by piece by piece, by
illegal settlements. The land is slowly
being stolen. The indigenous population,
the Palestinian people, are being forced
out, or the attempt is. Their resolve to
protest their situation nonviolently,
using something like
BDS, is one of the most admirable
pieces of resistance that we’ve ever
seen anywhere in the world. You know,
it’s quite extraordinary.
Could I boycott Egypt? If anybody ever
asked me to go and play in Egypt, I
might see if there was an organization
in Egypt that I could ally myself to,
like there is BDS
in Palestinian civil society. Could I go
and play in Syria? No, there’s nothing
left. It’s rubble, you know. Well, there
is, there’s something there, but it’s
clinging to its statehood by its
fingernails.
AMY
GOODMAN:
So let’s end with one last clip of the
film, The Occupation of the American
Mind, that looks at how perceptions
are changing in the U.S. about the
Israeli-Palestine conflict. Again, the
film begins with narrator Roger Waters.
ROGER
WATERS:
Over just the past few years, the
proliferation of social media and
internet news sources has made it
increasingly difficult for the
Israeli government and pro-Israel
groups in the U.S. to manage
American perceptions of the
conflict. Video footage and
reporting from the ground bearing
witness to the reality of the
occupation are now more accessible
than ever on the internet.
In addition, over the past few
years, a number of high-profile
documentaries, made by Israeli and
Palestinian filmmakers alike, have
trained a harsh light on current
Israeli policy and the repression of
Palestinian rights.
ADEEB
ABU
RAHMAH:
[translated] This is a small
village. What do you think? Have you
no heart? No family? Every one of
you knows that this is village land!
You stole my land!
ROGER
WATERS:
At the same time, a powerful new
Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions
movement has been gaining momentum
and raising awareness of the
occupation, while activists from the
Black Lives Matter movement have
been making explicit connections
between police violence against
African Americans and the Israeli
military’s repression of
Palestinians.
MARC
LAMONT
HILL:
We stand next to people who continue
to courageously struggle and resist
the occupation, people who continue
to dream and fight for freedom. From
Ferguson to Palestine, the struggle
for freedom continues.
ROGER
WATERS:
And all of these developments seem
to be having an effect. Polls now
show that while sympathy for Israel
remains at all-time highs among
older Americans, it has been
hemorrhaging among young people.
SUT
JHALLY:
Despite the efforts of the lobby,
something really striking is taking
place. Lots of young people are
abandoning the mainstream media and
turning instead to other independent
sources. So they have a totally
different way of making sense of
what’s happening—an unfiltered view
of Israel’s repression. And
pro-Israel operatives like Frank
Luntz are in a panic. In his latest
report, he calls what’s happening
with young people a "disaster," and
demands that Israel’s supporters
respond. And people have answered
the call. You have powerful
right-wing billionaires, like
Sheldon Adelson, a major donor to
Republican candidates, bankrolling a
campaign to silence and intimidate
student activists on college
campuses. But it’s not working.
Groups like Students for Justice in
Palestine, who see what’s happening
to Palestinians as a civil rights
issue, have refused to be
intimidated. They’re refusing to
back down, even though they’re being
labeled as anti-Semitic and
terrorist sympathizers. And their
numbers are growing.
PROTESTERS: Hey,
hey! Ho, ho! The siege of Gaza’s got
to go!
YOUSEF
MUNAYYER:
As the discourse begins to open,
more people are starting to
understand this as a rights-based
issue, not an issue of radicalism.
This is a movement for the rights of
people whose rights are being
denied, who are living under
occupation, who want to live in
their country freely, just like
anybody else.
RASHID
KHALIDI:
You can see just so many video clips
of kids having their hands smashed
by soldiers with batons. You can see
just so many pictures of thousands
of people being killed as happened
in Gaza. And at a certain point,
there’s a cognitive dissonance. You
realize that what you’re being told
is a pack of lies.
AMY
GOODMAN:
The last voice, Rashid Khalidi,
professor at Columbia University, and,
before that, Yousef Munayyer, Sut
Jhally, our guest, and Marc Lamont Hill.
Well, Roger Waters, you’re the narrator
of this film. You don’t have to do any
of this. You could just perform. You are
an icon in so many places in the world.
But you focus on this issue. Ultimately,
what gives you hope?
ROGER
WATERS:
What gives me hope? Well, we just saw a
little clip there of a Black Lives
Matter activist talking about how he
feels that his struggle is in concert
with the struggle of the Palestinian
people. And it’s also what Sut was
saying in the film, that there are
blogs, there are other places to get
news now via the internet, so that you
can get at more of the truth of what’s
going on. And the fact that people are
communicating through that now gives me
some hope. In our show, it’s expressed
very, very clearly. I don’t mention
Palestine once in our show. There’s
one—there’s one shot, I think, of the
separation wall going through it or
something. It’s something I steered away
with. But there’s a general sense in
everything in my show that we’re all
human, that we have an absolute
responsibility to look after one
another.
AMY
GOODMAN:
Roger Waters, founding member of Pink Floyd,
and Sut Jhally, founder of the Media
Education Foundation, which produced the
film The Occupation of the American
Mind: Israel’s Public Relations War in the
United States. Roger Waters is
performing Friday night and Saturday night
at Nassau Coliseum in Long Island.
That does it for our show. Democracy Now!
co-host Juan González is speaking about his
new book, Reclaiming Gotham, tonight
at Changing Hands Bookstore in
Tempe, Arizona,
at 7 p.m. Tomorrow night, Friday, in
Austin, Texas,
Juan is speaking at 5:30 p.m. at the Workers
Defense Project. In the next weeks, he’s
heading to
Newark, New Jersey;
Kansas City, Missouri;
and
College Park, Maryland.
I’ll be speaking throughout Canada on the
weekend at the end of September. Check our
website at
democracynow.org.
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