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U.S. EXCLUSIVE:
Syrian President Bashar Al-Asad
on U.S. Foreign Policy, the Resistance in Iraq, Syrian-Lebanese
Relations and More
An interview with Syrian President Bashar Al-Asad.
He spoke with independent journalist Reese Erlich last month in
Damascus in a wide-ranging interview on United States foreign
policy, resistance to the occupation of Iraq, Syrian relations
with Lebanon and much more.
07/18/06
Democracy Now!
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AMY GOODMAN: On Monday,
President Bush was caught on tape at the G8 summit speaking
privately to the British Prime Minister Tony Blair. On the tape,
he curses and blames Syria for the current crisis.
PRESIDENT GEORGE W. BUSH: See, the irony is that
what they need to do is get Syria to get Hezbollah to stop
doing this s*** and it’s over.
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, former CIA director, James
Woolsey, appeared on FOX yesterday to call for U.S. air strikes
against Syria. Damascus has warned that it will respond in a
"unlimited manner" to any Israeli attacks on the country.
Meanwhile, a massive pro-Hezbollah rally was held in Damascus
yesterday.
Today we bring you a Democracy Now! U.S. broadcast
exclusive, an interview with Syrian President Bashar Al-Asad.
Last month he gave a wide-ranging interview to independent
journalist, Reese Erlich, in Damascus. Erlich's a freelance
foreign correspondent, reports regularly for CBC, ABC Australia,
Radio Deutsche Welle, National Public Radio. Reese Erlich is
also co-author of the book Target Iraq: What the News Media
Didn't Tell You, and he now joins us from San Francisco.
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Reese.
REESE ERLICH: Thanks very much, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about this interview that
we're about to play? What were the circumstances of it? Where
did you interview the President of Syria?
REESE ERLICH: I interviewed him at the presidential
palace, up on a hill above Damascus, where he has his formal
meetings. It's a very impressive place. You go in, and you have
about eight miles of red carpet and huge doors, and it's quite
an impressive entrance. And then, out of a little room comes the
President of Syria and welcomes you in and shakes your hand.
He's a very friendly guy. I’ve had an opportunity to interview
presidents from a number of different countries, and most of
them are rather stiff and formal. He was very informal, easy to
talk to, was forthcoming in the interview. And we talked about a
whole range of issues, from Iran and Syria and U.S. relations
and terrorism down to issues of democratic rights inside Syria.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to the first part of that
interview right now, where, Reese Erlich, you started by asking
President Bashar Al-Asad if he was concerned the United States
might also be considering Syria as a target for military action.
Mind you, this is before the current conflict. You asked him if
the U.S. might also consider Syria as a target. This is the
President of Syria answering.
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Actually, Syria has a
history of 5,000 years, and it made its history, it makes
its presence, and it will make its future. The people in
Syria will decide who's going to be in charge, who's going
on the helm and who's not. But the most important thing,
whoever think about destabilizing Syria, he should know that
he's going to destabilize the region. We are the safety
valve in the region.
REESE ERLICH: The safety valve?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Yeah, safety valve in
the region.
REESE ERLICH: What way? How?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: In a geopolitical way.
Geopolitical way. The history of Syria, the road of the
Syria and the region, the link between Syria and our
neighbors, social links, ideological links, and the interest
links with the region. So the whole region is connected with
each other.
REESE ERLICH: You mentioned that in the past Syria
has helped provide intelligence about terrorist groups,
al-Qaeda and so on. Explain that. And when did that
cooperation end?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Actually, we started
cooperating with the United States -- we took the initiative
to cooperate with the United States intelligence after 11th
of September. And we succeeded in preventing more than seven
plots made by al-Qaeda against the United States. The
cooperation stopped last March 2005, because of mistakes
were made by the United States, first; second, because of
their political position or stand against Syria.
REESE ERLICH: What were the mistakes made by the
United States?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Technical mistakes that
led to losing many opportunities to go forward in fighting
terrorism in the region.
REESE ERLICH: That was also around the time in
which the U.S. was pressuring Lebanon to demand the return
of Syrian troops and the charges about Hariri, and so on and
so forth. So, did that, in general, sour the political
atmosphere?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Definitely, definitely.
REESE ERLICH: Do you think the Bush administration
will militarily attack Iran, using the issue of nuclear
weapons development, supposedly, that Iran is involved in?
Do you think that's likely?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Anyway, it's a
hypothetical question, but if we want to talk about logic
and the interest of the region and of the United States and
the rest of the world, it's not to do such a thing, because
the whole world would pay a very expensive price.
REESE ERLICH: What would be the consequences if
the U.S. did either try to impose sanctions or even a
military strike on Iran?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Sanctions won't do
anything, from the experience in Iraq, in many different
countries. Sanctions won't do anything. But the consequences
of destabilizing the region by sanctions, by military
actions, by any kind of means, will lead to destabilizing
the whole Middle East.
REESE ERLICH: Iran has a number of options, should
something like that happen. For example, it can work with
its supporters in Iraq to attack U.S. forces, when they're
not doing that now. It has influence with Hezbollah, and it
could inflame the situation there. Do you think those would
be some of the examples of the destabilization?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: I think the question
should be, as to the Iranian, I mean, both, they're going to
do. But for me, the consequences are much deeper, if you
look at Iraq as an example. You cannot talk about factions
or parties or groups. It's much more deeper than this. It's
chaos. It's going to be a total chaos.
AMY GOODMAN: Reese Erlich interviewing the President
of Syria. We're going to go back to that interview, joined by
Reese Erlich in studio in San Francisco and Patrick Seale,
British journalist who's covered the Middle East for over 30
years, who wrote the biography of Asad called Asad: The
Struggle for the Middle East.
Patrick Seale, I wanted to go to you in France right now to
give us a little background on Asad, on the President of Syria,
and to also your response to this first part of the interview.
PATRICK SEALE: Well, as you know, he's been in power
for about six years now. He took over from his father, when his
father died in June 2000. He is an eye doctor, trained as an eye
doctor in Britain and in Syria. He wasn't really prepared for
power, so he's had a rather hard innings, particularly, of
course, since the attack on Iraq by the United States, which is
probably go down in history as a monumental blunder.
Nevertheless, he has proved a very tough defender of Syrian
interests, and it's striking that he should make this claim,
that whoever -- that to destabilize Syria is to destabilize the
whole region. I think that's really, in a way, one of his key
remarks. He points to his concern and his attempt to persuade
the world that Syria has an important regional role and
continues to have that role.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you give us more on the background,
Patrick Seale, of how Bashar Al-Asad rose to power? And then,
also, if you could talk about the reference to Rafik Hariri, the
Lebanese leader who was assassinated last year.
PATRICK SEALE: Well, he rose to power -- in a way, it
was a sort of joint decision of the political elite in Damascus
after his father died. He seemed a natural candidate, and in
fact his father had, I think, to some extent, prepared him for
this task in the six years since his elder brother, Basil, died
in a car crash. His elder brother, Basil, was the acknowledged
heir. When he died, then they recalled Dr. Bashar from London,
where he was studying ophthalmology, and he was then trained to
succeed his father. As I said, it's not been an easy problem.
Now, the Lebanon is vitally important for Syria's security.
Syria cannot tolerate a hostile power in the Lebanon, and this,
I think, lies at the root of much of Syria's policy. If you may
recall that in 1982, Israel invaded Lebanon, killing about
17,000 Lebanese and Palestinians and attempting to bring Lebanon
into its orbit with the help of the United States. George
Shultz, at the time, the American Secretary of State, tried to
broker a separate peace between Israel and Lebanon, which would
have put Lebanon in Israel's sphere of influence, and the
Israelis were anxious to install a puppet government in Beirut,
which would do their bidding.
Now, the Syrians managed to overturn that accord and bring
Lebanon back into their sphere of influence, which, as I said,
is necessary for their security, but is also a reflection of the
numerous ties between the two countries. They are tied,
intimately tied, by the family ties, trade ties, financial ties
and, of course, historical ties. So for all these reasons, Syria
has a very strong interest in the Lebanon.
Now, we don't know whether or not Syria killed the former
prime minister of Lebanon, Rafik Hariri. The investigation into
that matter is still continuing, and indeed into the murders
which followed. Many people have pointed the finger at Syria and
have argued that Rafik Hariri wanted to change the relationship
between the two countries. But, as I say, it remains unproven to
this day.
AMY GOODMAN: I want to talk to you about the
cooperation between Syria and the United States, but first,
we're going to go back to the interview. Again, this is an
interview done before the current conflict. Independent reporter
Reese Erlich in this Democracy Now! U.S. broadcast
exclusive, speaking to the President of Syria, Bashar Al-Asad.
REESE ERLICH: Does Syria plan to demarcate its
borders with Lebanon -- and then, a second related question
-- or open embassies between the two?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: The first part about the
borders, we had a letter, formal letter, from the Lebanese
prime minister, and we sent him a reply, formal reply, that
we are ready to demarcate the borders. We don't have any
problem, because we had such a problem with Jordan a few
years ago, and we solved it.
About the embassies, as a concept, we cannot say we don't
want to have an embassy in another country, as a concept,
but that needs normal relation. Now, we don't have this
normal relation with the Lebanese, so it needs better
relation to discuss this issue.
REESE ERLICH: What kinds of issues would have to
be resolved in order to have a normal relation?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: First of all, not to
have a government that works against your country. This is
first of all. And second of all, you need the Syrians to
feel that they have real neighbors, not cradle for or not a
hub for terrorists to come and do such terrorist acts in
Syria.
REESE ERLICH: One last question, what would it
take to improve relations between the United States and
Syria now? Are there any steps that could be taken that
would improve them?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Definitely by the United
States, not by Syria, because we did a lot, and we couldn't
get any result, because they don't have the will. So first
of all, they should know and they should understand the
situation in the region. They should appreciate the role of
Syria in the region. They should know that we have common
interests that they don't see. And I think they should be
neutral in dealing with our causes. That's how we can get
back our relation to normal.
REESE ERLICH: So, do you want to be any more
specific about your causes and [inaudible]?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Yeah, definitely. The
most important thing, our occupied land, Golan Heights. The
United States should take into consideration that we see
everything in Syria through our occupied land. Without
talking about peace process, in order to get this land back,
what the benefit of this relation?
REESE ERLICH: Anything else you would like to add,
in a message to the American people?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: I think after the 11th
of September, which was a very tough lesson, not to the
United States people, to everybody in this world, first of
all, you should learn more about what's going on behind the
ocean, all over the world. You should send more people, more
delegations to meet with other cultures to discuss with
them, to know the facts, not to be isolated away from the
rest of the world.
AMY GOODMAN: Syrian President Bashar Al-Asad. When we
come back from break, he will talk about the war in Iraq, and
we'll continue with our conversation with Patrick Seale, who
wrote the biography of Asad, called Asad: The Struggle for
the Middle East. And we'll also speak with Reese Erlich, who
did the interview with the Syrian president in Damascus.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: We'll continue our interview that we're
bringing you in this U.S. broadcast exclusive. Independent
journalist Reese Erlich was in Damascus last month and
interviewed the President of Syria, Bashar Al-Asad. We're also
joined on the telephone by Patrick Seale from France, who wrote
the biography of Asad's father. It's called Asad: The
Struggle for the Middle East. Patrick Seale, as you listen
to this interview and hear Bashar Al-Asad talk about the United
States, can you comment on the relationship that Asad has had
with the United States, as well as Lebanon?
PATRICK SEALE: Well, Syria has -- there’s a terrible
noise on this line. Can you hear it?
AMY GOODMAN: We can hear the sound, but we can also
hear -- we can hear you.
PATRICK SEALE: Can you hear me?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, I hear you fine.
PATRICK SEALE: Well, it's incredible noise. One
second, please.
AMY GOODMAN: We can hear you, if you can try to ignore
the sound. We can hear you fine.
PATRICK SEALE: Well, Syria has always sought better
relations with the United States. Now, it’s suffered very much
from what it considers America's alignment on Israel. Indeed,
it's striking that President Bashar should urge the United
States to be more even-handed, more neutral in its approach to
the Middle East, not only, of course, on the Palestinian
question, but also on the subject very dear to Syrian hearts,
the occupied Golan. Now, as you know, Israel occupied the Golan
in 1967, and the United States, in spite of Security Council
Resolutions 242, 338, has allowed that occupation to stand, as
it has allowed the occupation of Palestinian territories to
stand for the last 39 years. The United States allowed Israel to
occupy Lebanon, Southern Lebanon, for 22 years, and occupy the
Palestinian territories for 39 years. Now, these are the reasons
why many, many Arabs are very disgruntled, very hostile to the
United States. Now, the United States believes that Israel can
use force to protect its own supremacy in the region, but this
is increasingly contested.
And so, in terms of President Bashar Al-Asad, he made very
clear that Syria cannot tolerate the use of Lebanon to mount
hostile operations against Syria. That's when he was answering
the question about why not restore -- have an exchange of
embassies, have diplomatic relations with Lebanon. He said,
‘Well, we could do that once we have normal relations and once
we have a Lebanese government in Beirut which doesn't work
against Syria or cooperate with its enemies.’ So he was very
clear on all those issues, and his appeal to the United States
was to understand the region better, understand that there are
other countries in the region, apart from Israel, with whom the
United States has common interests, and should recognize those
interests.
AMY GOODMAN: Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Seymour
Hersh detailed several years ago how the Bush administration
destroyed U.S.-Syrian relations by attacking a convoy of cars
inside Syria in an attempt to assassinate Saddam Hussein. It
turned out the convoy was made up of cars that were smuggling
goods out of Iraq, and Syria has since stopped cooperating with
the United States.
PATRICK SEALE: Well, that's true. It wasn't just that.
I mean, Syria, like many other countries in the world, like
France, like Germany, was very much opposed to the attack on
Iraq. The Syrians had no love for Saddam Hussein, but the idea
that the United States should attack -- I mean, an unprovoked
attack against a major Arab country -- and smash it and kill
tens of thousands of people, and then accuse Syria, of all
countries, of interfering or Iran of interfering, when the
United States, which previously had opposed, over the horizon,
of keeping away from the heartland of the Middle East, suddenly
makes this qualitative leap of attacking a major Arab state,
this has caused consternation in the region.
And, of course, the Syrians feel threatened. They feel that
they may be next. At least they felt that in the earlier stages
of the attack. Now, I think they feel a bit more confident,
because of the quagmire in which the United States finds itself.
I mean, it looks very much as if the neo-cons, the pro-Israeli
neo-cons, in influential positions in the U.S. administration
took the United States for a ride. They involved it in this
attack on Iraq, no doubt believing this would improve Israel's
strategic environment. But this has proved to be a catastrophe
for the United States, extremely costly in men and treasure.
AMY GOODMAN: Patrick Seale, we're going to go back to
the interview that independent journalist Reese Erlich did with
the President of Syria, Bashar Al-Asad, last month, again,
before the current conflict.
REESE ERLICH: President Bush made a surprise visit
to Baghdad today, or yesterday and today. Zarqawi was
killed. Do you think that -- the Bush administration is
trying to say that they're making progress now in Iraq. Do
you think -- well, first of all, do you think that's
accurate, or do you think the U.S. in some ways has actually
already lost the war?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Lost the war and making
progress are linked together, so have to ask about the goal
first. So you have goal, democracy, the answer is very
clear: the situation is much worse than before, even during
Saddam’s, that we don't defend in Syria. If they talk about
better living standards, the situation much, much worse than
before. If they are talking about development, about
infrastructure, about anything, so everything is worse. So
that depends on what the goal of the war.
You cannot talk about occupation. I mean, occupation is
not the goal of the war. This is the mean, occupation. But
if we talk about the military side of the war, killing
Americans every day in Iraq, and, of course, killing Iraqis,
tens of Iraqis every week, is that the goal of the war from
the military point of view? I don't think so. The answer is
very clear for us.
REESE ERLICH: But even in a military sense, the
U.S. no longer controls certain areas of Iraq. It's very
unstable, even in the south, in the Basra area. It would
seem that even from a strictly military standpoint, the
situation has gotten worse from the U.S. Do you think that's
true?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: It’s self-evident. No
power, no military power in the world, even the United
States, can control a small country militarily. You can only
control a country if the people wants you to control it.
When the people are against you -- and this is very normal
to have the people against the occupation in Iraq and in any
other country -- you are going to have resistance, and you
will not control anything. This is normal.
REESE ERLICH: What do you think the outcome is
going to be, if you said a few years from now, what do you
think the situation will look like in Iraq?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: That depends on the
constitution, first of all. You need consensus. If you want
to talk about the future of Iraq, we should talk about a
consensus about something, and normally the future of Iraq
is going to be inside the constitution. So far, according to
what we hear from many Iraqi factions, some factions think
they are oppressed, so this needs to be re-evaluated. I
think this is at the core of the future. If there's no
consensus about the constitution, you will have conflict or
maybe a civil war. This is the core, not having a new
government or having some relation. This is good, we support
in Syria. We support the political process, but this is not
enough. This is for the short term, it's okay. For the long
term, no, it's not enough.
REESE ERLICH: Sources have told me you've been
involved in promoting some negotiations between the Sunni
resistance and the government. Is that accurate?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Actually, what we tried
to promote is the unified Iraq. This is the only thing. We
tried to see what's in common between the whole Iraqis, and
we tried to make some negotiations, some marketing, some
ideas that the Iraqi would think it helps unifying Iraq or
keep it unified, so far. And this is how we put our role as,
in general.
REESE ERLICH: But, specifically, have you helped
facilitate some talks between the resistance, the people
opposed, fighting the United States, and the Iraqi
government?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Actually, there's a
delegation that comes to Syria. We don't know if they are
resistance or not. They are Iraqis. And they don’t know --
nobody knows who are the resistance. Only the Iraqis. So
don't believe if anyone tells you that he knows what the
resistance? So, but definitely, most of them, most of the
Iraqis that we meet, they are supporting the resistance, at
least politically.
REESE ERLICH: And are you trying to facilitate the
political supporters to hold negotiations with the
government?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Yeah, we always say that
we are ready to help in any way, but definitely Syria is
open for this, and we tried to. Yeah, we did some effort.
REESE ERLICH: There's been recent deaths on the
beach in Gaza. Hamas has ended its ceasefire with Israel.
What is your -- it seems like a very great struggle is
re-emerging now in Palestine. What is your prediction for
the next short-term period in Palestine?
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: You mean the
Palestinian-Palestinan relation or Palestinian --
REESE ERLICH: Palestinian-Israeli relations, yeah.
PRESIDENT BASHAR AL-ASAD: Of course, when you have
conflict between the Palestinians, you won’t have a peace
talk in the near future. So I’m talking about -- I’m talking
from the West’s point of view now. From our point of view,
it's something -- between the Palestinians, it’s something
humanitarian, that we consider them as brothers.
But I think the Palestinians are paying the price of
Oslo, treaty in 1993, and this is first. Second, they paid
the price of the paralyzed peace process, especially after
the 2000 negotiation at Camp David and the deadlock that
they reached between the Palestinian and the Israeli and the
negligence of the American administration of the peace
process, in general.
AMY GOODMAN: The President of Syria, Bashar Al-Asad,
speaking with independent journalist, Reese Erlich. We’re going
to go to him in a minute, but I wanted to ask Patrick Seale
quickly, in France, about how much control you think Syria has
over Hezbollah in Lebanon now.
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