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Ralph Nader: U.S. Carries
"Inescapable Responsibility" for "Israeli Government's
Escalating War Crimes"
In a letter to President Bush this week, former Presidential
Candidate Ralph Nader harshly criticized the White House for its
response to the crisis. Nader is perhaps the most well known
Lebanese-American in the world. He ran against George W Bush for
president twice - in 2000 and 2004. He is also the most
prominent consumer advocate in the country
Lecture date: 06/20/06
Democracy Now!
AMY GOODMAN: In a letter to President Bush this week,
former presidential candidate Ralph Nader harshly criticized the
White House for its response to the crisis. Ralph Nader is
perhaps the most well known Lebanese American in the world. He
ran against George W. Bush for president twice, in 2000 and
2004. He is also the most prominent consumer advocate in this
country. Ralph Nader joins us on the telephone right now. We
welcome you to Democracy Now!, Ralph Nader.
RALPH NADER: Good morning, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: Tell us what you wrote to President Bush.
RALPH NADER: I wrote him a letter that basically
described the need for him to get advice from his father and
Brent Scowcroft and James Baker about how he should deal with
this Israeli invasion of Lebanon, which of course violates a
whole range of international treaties and Geneva Conventions, to
which the United States has been a longtime signatory. And the
first priority that Bush should adopt is to recognize that the
U.S.'s indiscriminate support of Israel's indiscriminate bombing
of Lebanon -- ports and hospital and roads and wheat silos and
residential areas -- puts a responsibility on the President, who
is shipping a lot of tax dollars to Israel, as well as a lot of
weapons, to put a stop to this through a ceasefire and to take a
stronger initiative in resolving the core problem, which is the
Palestinian-Israeli conflict.
AMY GOODMAN: You also take on the issue of President
Bush's father and where he should go for advice.
RALPH NADER: Yes, I wanted to draw a contrast as to
just how extreme and messianically driven President Bush is,
even in comparison with his father and his father’s key
advisers, Jim Baker and Brent Scowcroft, both of whom opposed
the invasion of Iraq in 2003. Bush, in 2004, was quoted as
saying, quote, "I trust God speaks through me," end-quote. We’re
dealing here with not just a phenomenally ignorant man, but a
messianically driven man, and so when the Prime Minister of
Israel visits the White House, he, Bush, knows who the puppeteer
and who the puppet is, but he doesn't like to appear like a
puppet, so he embraces messianically anything that Israel
chooses to do militarily and to, in the words of the combat
reservists who have refused to serve in the West Bank and Gaza,
the Israeli combat reservists, they refuse to serve in Gaza and
the West Bank and in their words they, quote, "We shall not
continue to fight beyond the 1967 borders in order to dominate,
expel, starve and humiliate an entire people," end-quote. And
that is exactly what George W. Bush's unqualified support,
weaponry, diplomatic cover, vetoes in the UN against UN
resolutions, is providing the Israeli military regime an
opportunity to do, the Palestinians and anybody in the area that
the Israeli military regime wants to dominate, damage.
What’s interesting here is that the Israeli peace movement,
just like the peace movement in our country, was cowed when the
hostilities began a few days ago. But that doesn't mean that the
Israeli peace movement and leading commentators, former
ministers of justice and defense and intelligence officials, who
in prior months and years spoke out against the occupation,
colonization, domination, destruction of the West Bank and
Palestine cannot reassert themselves. But when they’re up
against George W. Bush and a supine congress and a absurdly
compliant Hillary Clinton, and others, it’s very hard for the
Israeli peace movement, in the Knesset and elsewhere, to
reassert itself. And that’s the cardinal failure of the Bush
regime, that they have sided their positions with the
militarists in Israel, but not with the broad, deep and
prominent Israeli peace movement.
AMY GOODMAN: Ralph Nader, we have to break. We’ll come
back to you. We’ll also be joined by a member of the Israeli
peace movement, Professor Illan Pappe from Haifa, which has been
hit by Hezbollah rockets. We’re also going to be joined by a
prominent doctor in Gaza. We’re talking to former Independent
presidential candidate Ralph Nader. We’ll be back with him in a
minute.
[break]
AMY GOODMAN: We are talking to former presidential
candidate Ralph Nader, leading consumer activist in this
country. Ralph Nader, I wanted to play for you an excerpt of
Tuesday's White House press conference. In it, Press Secretary
Tony Snow is questioned by veteran correspondent Helen Thomas.
Commonly referred to as “the First Lady of the Press,” Helen
Thomas is the most senior member of the White House press corps.
What many people may not know is that she’s also of Lebanese
descent. At Tuesday’s news conference, she questioned Tony Snow
about the U.S. response to the Israeli assault.
HELEN THOMAS: The United States is not that
helpless. It could have stopped the bombardment of Lebanon.
We have that much control with the Israelis.
TONY SNOW: I don't think so, Helen.
HELEN THOMAS: We have gone for collective
punishment against all of Lebanon and Palestine.
TONY SNOW: What’s interesting, Helen --
HELEN THOMAS: And this is what’s happening, and
that’s the perception of the United States.
TONY SNOW: Well, thank you for the Hezbollah view,
but I would encourage you --
HELEN THOMAS: Nobody is accepting your
explanation. What is restraint? You call for restraint.
TONY SNOW: Well, I’ll tell you, what’s
interesting, Helen, is people have. The G8 was completely
united on this. And as you know, when it comes to issues of
--
HELEN THOMAS: And we stopped a ceasefire. Why?
TONY SNOW: We didn't stop a ceasefire. Let me just
tell you -- I’ll tell you what.
HELEN THOMAS: We vetoed --
TONY SNOW: We didn't even veto. Please get your
facts right. What happened was that the G8 countries made a
pretty clear determination that the guilty party here was
Hezbollah. You cannot have a ceasefire when you've got the
leader of Hezbollah going on his television saying that he
perceives total war -- he's declaring total war. When they
are firing rockets indiscriminately --
HELEN THOMAS: We had the United Nations --
TONY SNOW: Please let me finish. I know this is
great entertainment, but I want to finish the answer. The
point here is, they're firing rockets indiscriminately into
civilian areas. The Israelis are responding as they see fit.
You will note the countries that disagree with the --
HELEN THOMAS: -- bombardment of a whole country --
TONY SNOW: -- that disagree with the government of
Israel in terms of its general approach on Palestine, many
of our European allies agree that Israel has the right to
defend itself, that the government of Lebanon has the right
to control all its territory, that Hezbollah is responsible,
and that those who support it also bear responsibility.
There is no daylight between the United States and all the
allies on this. They all agreed on it. This was not
difficult.
AMY GOODMAN: White House Press Secretary Tony Snow
responding to reporter Helen Thomas's comments. Ralph Nader,
beginning with his comment, when she asked about isn't this
collective punishment, saying this is a Hezbollah response.
RALPH NADER: Well, of course, the history of this is
not just two weeks old. In 1982, when Israel invaded Lebanon,
violating all kinds of Geneva conventions and UN resolutions,
the New York Times’s Tom Friedman accused the Israeli
military, actually reported, indiscriminate bombing in Beirut,
and there were warships, Israeli shelling indiscriminately in
Beirut. These are total war crimes, massive damage and death and
destruction to innocent people.
The border between Israel and Lebanon involves raids of
Israel, much more than Hezbollah, because of the more powerful
factor. They still control large farm acreage, the Shebaa Farms,
which are Lebanese soil. The Israelis have abducted Israeli
civilians. They won’t tell the United Nations or the Lebanese
government the location for thousands of land mines in South
Lebanon so they can be deactivated. And during the 18-year
occupation of South Lebanon, itself illegal under international
law from 1982 to the year 2000, Israel drew water, precious
water, from the Litani and even took fertile topsoil back to
Israel, and other plunders. So, you know, for Tony Snow to act
like, well, you know, everything started with this attack by
Hezbollah, which is basically an attack designed to provide for
a prisoner exchange. This has happened numerous times over the
Lebanese-Israeli border.
But as Israeli commentators pointed out, this invasion of
Lebanon doesn't have anything to do with it. This is just a
pretext by Israel, that Israel wants a puppet regime in Lebanon.
It cannot stand an independent Lebanon, and it seeks to achieve
that objective by this massive invasion and dividing the
sectarian conflicts, as it did in 1982. So, it’s really tragic
to see the Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs,
Nicholas Burns, and others acting as if they were emissaries of
the Israeli embassy. When Mr. Burns said on the McNeil-Lehrer
Report the other night that all the civilian deaths and
destruction in Lebanon are due to Hezbollah, that is the kind of
go signal that the Israeli regime wants to hear from the United
States.
But I think it’s important for all peace-seeking people to
move to pressure the U.S. government to get a ceasefire and to
finally involve the Bush administration in serious negotiations
as an honest broker to resolve the Palestinian-Israeli conflict
with a two-state solution, a viable Palestinian state, which is
supported by large numbers of Israelis, as well as, of course,
Palestinians, and I might add about 70% of American Jews support
a two-state solution to this problem, which has gotten us
involved into more and more quagmires in the Middle East, not to
exclude the Iraq war.
AMY GOODMAN: Ralph Nader, I wanted to bring professor
Illan Pappe into this conversation. Hezbollah is continuing to
fire rockets into Northern Israel. 29 Israelis have been killed
so far, including 15 civilians. On Wednesday, Hezbollah fired
over 100 missiles, hitting Haifa and for the first time
Nazareth. The rocket attacks killed two boys there. They were
both Palestinian with Israeli citizenship. Nine others were
wounded in the attack.
We’re going to go to Northern Israel to speak with Illan
Pappe, an Israeli historian, author and political scientist at
the University of Haifa. His latest book is called A History
of Modern Palestine. Joining us on the line from Haifa,
Professor Pappe. Thank you for joining us. We’re also speaking
to Ralph Nader, on the line here in the United States.
ILLAN PAPPE: Hello, Amy.
AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. Can you
talk about what’s happening in Haifa right now, the rocket
attacks on your city, and your response?
ILLAN PAPPE: Well, today was a relative quiet day.
There were several sirens, but no rockets fell, unlike tomorrow.
But I’m aware that what we are going through pales in comparison
to what goes on on the other side of the border, where a large
number of civilians have been killed.
And I think I can talk also as a spokesperson for the Israeli
Committee Against the War, that the citizens of Haifa,
Palestinians and Jews alike, there are quite a large number of
them who ask probably the same questions that Ralph Nader asked
before. Why doesn't our government accept the offer of the
United Nations to an immediate ceasefire and the beginning of
diplomatic negotiations? And why does the United States, in the
most immoral position I have ever recalled since the end of the
second World War, tells us and the poor citizens of Lebanon that
it doesn't mind the mutual killing of citizens, so that the
military operation could go on, where it knows that it has the
power to stop today the shelling of both Israelis and Lebanese
and to start maybe a more fruitful negotiations, not only over
the questions of the prisoners of war, but maybe even over the
question of the comprehensive solution.
AMY GOODMAN: How important is the U.S. stance,
Professor Pappe?
ILLAN PAPPE: Immensely so. I think that, first of all,
it has the power, like it never had before, to stop an
escalation, which has already claimed the lives of many innocent
people. So that’s a very powerful position. Secondly, it’s the
only superpower in the area and in the world, and that’s a very
great responsibility. And thirdly, without the U.S. support, the
aggressive Israeli policies, not only towards Lebanon, but also
towards the Gaza Strip and towards the Occupied Territories,
would have changed dramatically. So I would say that in fact the
Middle East conflict continues, very much because -- not only
because, but primarily because -- of the American position.
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Pappe, we’re hearing over and
over again in the U.S. media about how the Israeli population is
fully behind their government, especially as the rockets
continue to slam into Haifa, now Nazareth. Is this true?
ILLAN PAPPE: Yeah, it is true. It is true that the
Jewish society -- as you know, 20% of the Israelis are
Palestinians, and I doubt very much whether they support this
policy, but it is true that the majority of the Jewish
population supports the government, but they do it because (a)
they’re misinformed -- nobody in Israel can see what are the
results of the Israeli bombing in Lebanon -- and because it is
an indoctrinated society that, through the educational system
and the media and the political system, gets a very distorted
picture of the reality around it.
So you can get the consensus around the government policies,
but, you know, from history we know that the majority support
for certain policies doesn't vindicate it or doesn’t justify it.
And for the first time, I think, this war actually -- and this
is my great hope, as well -- is going to bring questions to the
fore, because I think more and more Israelis realize that what
they were promised a week ago, that in 48 hours or so the mighty
Israeli Air Force would settle all the problems of the Middle
East for once and for all, this promise was made in vain, and my
hope is that the Israelis will start to ask questions that would
first lead to the end of this war, but maybe would start an era
of pluralism in Israel, which pretends to be a democracy, with
some of the more bizarre and dangerous policies of the
government would be questioned by its society.
AMY GOODMAN: We started the show in Beirut, now
talking to you in Haifa, talking to Ralph Nader here in the
United States. And I want to go back to Ralph Nader, but I want
to go from all of these places also to Gaza, where a parallel
Israeli assault continues to claim lives on a daily basis.
Wednesday, 30 Israeli armored vehicles entered Gaza’s Mughazi
refugee camp at sunrise, just hours after Israel’s withdrawal
from northern Gaza Tuesday. Israeli soldiers occupied the camp
while bulldozers leveled the surrounding farmland. An Israeli
drone fired a missile into the edge of the camp. Six
Palestinians were killed, over 50 injured, in the attack. Over a
hundred Palestinians have been killed by the Israeli military
over the last three weeks. Many of the casualties have been
children. A UN Security Council resolution opposing the
offensive was vetoed by the United States last week.
To discuss the latest developments in Gaza, we’re joined by
Dr. Mona El-Farra, a physician and community activist in
northern Gaza, also a health development consultant for Gaza's
Union of Health Work Committees. Dr. El-Farra, welcome to
Democracy Now!
DR. MONA EL-FARRA: Thank you very much for
interviewing me.
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the situation on the
ground right now?
DR. MONA EL-FARRA: Yes. Right now the east of the
middle camps in Gaza Strip, the Israelis -- as you mentioned
earlier, at least seven people were killed, and I am sorry that
one of the injured was one of the health emergency team whose
both legs were amputated. And the army tanks destroyed the power
plant in that area, so the whole area of the middle camps,
besides the majority of the Gaza Strip, still doesn't have
electrical power. The hospitals are working under heavy load of
increasing number of casualties, besides the [inaudible] deaths.
We are working while the drug stores in Gaza Strip are in very
bad need for medications and medical supplies. So, the situation
is actually deteriorating.
The Israeli occupying forces are moving from one place to
another. After they finished with Beit Hanun village in the
north, they are moving to the middle camps. They are continuing
their assault against different ministries, the buildings, and
while they are bombing Gaza Strip official buildings, they don't
avoid civilians. And I can say the whole situation is a very
ugly situation and is not promising. We still live in big
prison, Gaza. I call it big prison. A whole nation is living
under collective punishment. A whole nation is captured, is
really captured. We are captured. We are chased by the gunboats
from the west of Gaza and the army tanks in the east and north,
while the air raids continue on top of Gaza.
And I’m sorry to know that the world, the media or mainstream
media doesn't cover what’s going on in Gaza, which is, they are
attacking Gaza piece by piece, and it is very -- I feel sorry
for what’s happening here. But despite all that, today I was in
the middle camps, just two kilometers away from the incursion
area, and I’m pleased to tell you that I was there -- while
hearing to the bombing happening in the east, I was there with
children who are trying to have a little fun by being through a
summer camp in that area, a summer camp organized by one of the
civil society organizations trying to find some fun for those
kids. So, while the army tanks with their bombing loudly, those
children were dancing to the folklore music, Palestinian
folklore music, and these children living in the refugee camp,
and they named their camp the “Camp of Freedom.” And so,
Palestinian people are still fighting in different ways,
resisting in different ways, towards our freedom.
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Mona El-Farra, speaking to us in
Gaza. As you listen to this, Ralph Nader, in the United States,
the U.S. press very much backing off what’s happening in Gaza,
as they focus on Lebanon. Your response.
RALPH NADER: Yes, and also focusing on the evacuation
of American citizens, of which there are far more than 25,000.
The Canadian paper said there are 25,000 Arab Canadians in
Lebanon. There's probably a quarter of a million. So,
low-balling American citizens is another tactic of the Bush
administration.
But getting back to the terrible situation in Gaza and the
West Bank, I think the framework of analysis here for Americans
in trying to persuade their government to pursue peace instead
of mayhem and war in the Middle East and in the
Palestinian-Israeli conflict is the following. Just ask four
simple questions: Who is the occupier, invader, and who is
seizing more land and water? It’s Israel. Who has the most
military power and domination, by a thousand to one, the most
modern, probably, army in the world, after the United States?
Who has slain more civilians and destroyed more civilian homes
and infrastructure? Again, Israel. And who has the full backing
of the U.S. government? Israel.
Now, doesn't it seem logical that the parties who should take
the initiative in what they declare should be a two-state
solution should be Israel and the United States? That’s the
essential point here, that the U.S. has an awesome
responsibility for that suffering, the deaths and injuries and
disease and incarceration of the people of Gaza and the gulag
that’s called the West Bank, where more land is being seized,
more water is being taken, colonies are expanding, Israeli-only
highways are built. I mean, we’re talking here about the biggest
prison in the world, and it’s financed in significant part by
the U.S. taxpayers and a supine congress. And so, it is very
important, because all this is going to lead to more instability
in the area, which will boomerang against our own security in
the United States.
And all this requires people to speak up, like Rabbi Lerner
of Tikkun and the Jewish Americans who were speaking up, like
the 300 British Jews who spoke up condemning the devastating
attack by Israel against defenseless people in Gaza. And, of
course, all over the world the protests that are going on. There
are 66 UN resolutions that are still on the books, critical of
Israel, that Israel has not complied with. 66, not just the one
resolution about disarming Hezbollah.
And so, we’re seeing here a situation, Amy, where even the
New York Times, its editorials, the absence of dissenting
views on the editorial op-ed page of the New York Times,
is abdicating the responsibility that it had to be a more
balanced paper when Anthony Lewis used to be a columnist there.
So, it’s a terrible situation. It's only going to get worse.
AMY GOODMAN: And what do you think would happen if the
U.S. press brought out the voices of this level of dissent in
this country and around the world? What do you think would
happen to U.S. public opinion?
RALPH NADER: I think an informed public opinion about
more of what’s going on there would lead to more pressure on
Congress and the White House to enforce the Arms Export Control
Act, which prohibits shipping weapons to any country that uses
it offensively. Blowing up trucks with medical supplies and
wheat silos in Lebanon certainly qualifies as that.
And I think also it would begin pushing the White House and
Congress to an aggressive peaceful resolution of the
Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which is the core conflict that is
breeding so much of this Islamic agitation and is not
unconnected with the war and quagmire in Iraq. As Gideon Levy
said in Ha’aretz the other day, “In Gaza, a soldier is
abducted from the army of a state that frequently abducts
civilians from their homes and locks them up for years without a
trial, but only we’re allowed to do that, and only we’re allowed
to bomb civilian population centers,” end-quote. That’s the kind
of dissent, humanitarian dissent, [inaudible] a lot of in
Israel, but it needs to be encouraged from the United States.
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go to Professor Illan Pappe,
joining us from Haifa. Israel's basic demands, passed to Beirut
by Italian Prime Minister Romano Prodi: return of the two
captured Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah; Hezbollah withdrawal to
the Litani River, which is roughly 20 miles north of the current
Lebanese-Israeli border; no more rocket attacks against Israel;
return by Hamas of the Israeli soldier. Your response, Professor
Pappe?
ILLAN PAPPE: Well, I think the demand for the return
of the soldiers has been a pretext, and, in fact, nobody is
talking about that demand any more here in Israel. We all forgot
about it. This has long time been forgotten. If you want to
return captive soldiers, you don't go and bomb the other side in
a way that may harm your chances. So, I don't think this is the
issue at all, and I don't think these Israeli demands are going
to be accepted unilaterally.
I think the Israelis are facing, both in the case of the
Hamas and the case of the Hezbollah, two very weak military
powers, but determined enough to show the Israelis that there
are two options here. One is the option of a very troubled, but
nonetheless constructive, dialogue, or the option of destruction
and violence.
And I think that these Israeli demands are not made in good
faith, and I don't think that they are really the objective of
the Israeli operation either in Lebanon or in Palestine. I think
the real target of these operations, which were by the way
preplanned and they were not just in a reaction to the abduction
of the soldiers, was to try and eliminate the only two
resistance movements left in the Middle East that oppose the
Israeli decision to unilaterally impose its vision on Palestine,
a vision that includes the creation of a greater Israel over
most of the West Bank and the enclaving and imprisoning of the
Palestinians in two small Bantustans.
And now, the Arab regimes are unable to oppose it. America
endorses it. The Europeans seem to be indifferent. And there are
only two movements, which are not just guerrilla movements, but
also popular social and cultural movements, that oppose these
policies. And the Israelis think they have the window of
opportunity with the unconditional American support to use force
in order to impose their will. And I think that’s the real
agenda.
And had the soldiers not been abducted, the Israelis would
have chosen another incident, a different incident, to unleash
their forces in what they think is a moment of historical
opportunity. But I think we all are going to learn that they
were wrong, and the price we are all going to pay is going to be
very high for this adventurous and reckless policy.
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Dr. Mona El-Farra, speaking to
us from Gaza, the attitude of people on the ground. I mean, you
now have Hamas leadership in jail, members of the parliament, of
the cabinet. You have, of course, the Israelis saying, the
Israeli military saying, that they will stop if the soldier, the
Israeli soldier, is returned. Are attitudes changing or
hardening on the ground?
DR. MONA EL-FARRA: First, I think the freedom of the
captured soldier is a pretense by Israel to go ahead and
implement its plan against Gaza, against the Hamas and the
different factions of resistance in the Gaza. On the ground,
people in Palestine -- all people in Palestine and Gaza Strip
think it is very easy for them -- it is very easy: free the
soldiers, free our political prisoners and Hamas, other members
who were imprisoned, and the soldier can get out. But it is not
as easy as this.
This is a pre-planned military assault against the Gaza
Strip. It is part of Israel’s planned expansion in the area and
aggression against Palestinian people and not to go ahead with
the agenda of negotiation. And I do strongly believe that
neither the wall nor the aggression nor the assault against the
Palestinian people will bring peace to Israel. I believe the
only outlet of this is negotiation and peace, but peace that is
built on justice, peace that will guarantee some of the
Palestinian national goals. And I believe the long term for us,
for the conflict in the area, long term, first to start with two
nations, two states, then end up this land will be for both
people. And Israel should learn from the history.
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Mona El-Farra I want to thank you for
being with us, physician speaking to us from Gaza; Professor
Illan Pappe, Israeli historian, teaches at the University of
Haifa, his latest book is A History of Modern Palestine;
and former presidential candidate Ralph Nader, speaking to us
from right here in the United States.
RALPH NADER: Amy?
AMY GOODMAN: Yes, Ralph?
RALPH NADER: I’d like to point out Tom Hayden's
remarkable statement showing his change from supporting the 1982
invasion of Lebanon to now being a critic of U.S. policy and
Israeli policy in the Middle East, that came out yesterday. A
very personal statement, candid mea culpas, and very
insightful. And he said, quote, “It should be clear by now that
the present Israeli government will never accept an independent
Palestinian state, but rather harbors the colonial ambition to
decide which Palestinian leaders are acceptable,” end-quote. I
think people should read that on the
website.
AMY GOODMAN: We will also link to that on our website
at democracynow.org, where people can find the transcript of
today’s discussion and also video and audio podcast our show.
Thank you all for being with us.
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