House of Commons debates - Wednesday, 11 June 2008 -
Somalia (Human Rights)
Motion made, and Question proposed, That this House do now adjourn. —[Steve McCabe.]
By George Galloway
Part 1 Here
13/06/08 -- -
Motion made,
and Question
proposed, That
this House do
now adjourn
.—[Ms Diana R.
Johnson.]
Mr. Galloway: On
a point of
order, Mr.
Deputy Speaker.
This Adjournment
debate was
scheduled to
begin at 7 pm
and last for
half an hour. I
have spoken for
10 minutes, and
the country—or
at least those
interested
enough to watch
on parliamentary
television—will
not hear the
Minister reply.
Mr. Deputy
Speaker (Sir
Michael Lord):
The hon.
Gentleman has
misunderstood.
The Adjournment
debate is now
starting, which
means that he
has so far had
bonus time. This
is one of the
procedures, as
far as the House
is concerned, we
have to go
through.
Mr. Galloway:
That is truly
magnificent, Mr.
Deputy Speaker,
as I have plenty
to say. Perhaps
I will be able
to quote Amnesty
International in
more detail in
the time that I
did not think
that I would
have available.
This policy is
not only morally
bankrupt, it is
politically
disastrous.
Afghanistan is
the perfect
example, but the
Ethiopian
Government
preside over a
country where
famine and mass
starvation stalk
the land. They
are being helped
militarily to
invade, occupy
and threaten
their neighbours.
What can that
conceivably do
for our standing
in Africa, or
for our
credibility when
we lecture the
Governments of
Sudan or
Zimbabwe?
It would be bad
enough if our
difficulties in
that respect
were confined to
Africa, but the
problem is much
worse. The
Somalians are
the tallest
people on earth,
but they are
virtually
invisible,
politically, on
the
international
stage and in
this country.
Yet there are
hundreds of
thousands of
Somalians here,
either because
they have
European Union
passports or
because they are
refugees from
the very
fighting that we
initiated and
are now
fuelling.
Increasingly,
young Somalis
are furious,
bitter and
angry. They
nurse their
wrath as they
watch—on Somali
television or
other Muslim
channels—the
carnage being
wrought in their
country.
Two million
people in
Somalia are
living as
refugees, out of
a population of
11 million. That
is almost a
fifth of the
total: to scale
it up, in our
country that
would amount to
12 million
people. There
are another 1
million Somali
refugees in
neighbouring
countries, and
God knows how
many hundreds of
thousands are
scattered across
the EU.
In their bitter
exile, the
sons—and may be
the daughters
too—of those
Somali families
are being
brought up
bitter and
furious at the
role played by
the west in the
problems that
they see on
their
televisions
screens. We have
spent hours this
afternoon trying
to deal with the
problem of
terrorism, but
we cannot see
how that
connects with
the way that we
constantly
infuriate young
Muslim boys and
girls with the
double standards
and injustices
of our policy
towards their
countries and
the countries
from which their
parents come.
We cannot see
the connection
between the
growth of
extremism and
our actions. The
Government are
always looking
for a cleric or
an organisation
to ban or to
blame for the
radicalisation
of Muslim youth
in Britain. But
those young
people do not
need a cleric or
an organisation
to radicalise
them: they just
have to watch
the news and see
what our
Government are
doing in Muslim
countries such
as Somalia.
I know that the
Minister has
seen Channel 4’s
“Dispatches”
programme. She
will not claim
otherwise, even
though she is
answering a
debate on human
rights in
Somalia. I hope
that she will do
a better job
than Lord
Malloch-Brown
did when it
comes to
explaining how
are taxes are
being used.
Among other
things, that tax
money could be
used to help
starving people
in Ethiopia. It
could be used to
keep our
pensioners warm
in winter or to
keep some post
offices open.
I see that the
hon. Member for
Poplar and
Canning Town
(Jim
Fitzpatrick),
who is
Under-Secretary
of State for
Transport and
the Minister
responsible for
closing post
offices, is
standing by your
Chair, Mr.
Deputy Speaker.
I hope that that
counts as being
in the House and
that it is
therefore in
order for me to
refer to him.
The British tax
money that I
have mentioned
could have been
used for a
better purpose,
but instead it
is being spent
on the security
forces in
Somalia, which
Amnesty
International,
as well as
Channel 4,
accuses of
widespread
abuses of human
rights—of
torture, murder,
disappearances,
kidnapping,
extortion and
grand larceny.
Why are we
allowing the
Interior
Minister of
Somalia to
travel back and
forth into our
country
unmolested when
he is accused by
aid agencies of
purloining
international
aid—desperately
needed emergency
aid for hungry
people—for
himself and for
political
purposes for his
political clan?
Why are the
Government not
stopping him at
the border and
questioning him
about where the
money went that
was put into
Somalia and has
disappeared?
Aid agencies
will not now, by
and large, set
foot in Somalia,
so catastrophic
has the
situation there
become. I ask
the Minister why
we are
supporting the
President, the
Interior
Minister and the
chief of police
in Somalia, and
allowing them to
come and go
freely without
answering the
charges that are
being made
against them?
When will the
Government at
least condemn
the human rights
abuses in
Somalia? Amnesty
has voluminously
recorded them,
but not a squeak
has come from
the Government,
which has never
done roaring at
Sudan or
Zimbabwe. Why?
Because we are
deeply complicit
in that. Indeed,
we are paying
for it; we are
paying for the
security
services that
are committing
these crimes in
Somalia.
The Government
might think that
because most
Somalis in
Britain do not,
for one reason
or another, have
votes, they can
be ignored—that
tall as they
are, they can be
disregarded.
However, the
truth is that
the Somali
community in
Britain’s
loathing of the
actions of our
Government is a
ticking time
bomb in Britain.
I, if not the
Minister, am
constantly
exposed in my
constituency,
and in
Birmingham and
Leicester and
other places, to
the anger of
these young
Somalis. There
is a disaster
waiting to
happen. I hope
that the
Minister will
announce today
that, in the
wake of the
Channel 4
revelations, she
will investigate
the allegations
properly, and
that she will
report her
findings to the
House.
I am talking in
my speech
tonight about
not only the
current British
Government’s
foreign policy
towards the horn
of Africa and
Afghanistan, but
about previous
Governments’
foreign
policies, too. I
remember being
on the
Opposition
Benches and
accusing the
then Prime
Minister, Mrs.
Thatcher, of
having opened
the gates to the
barbarians by
her support for
the so-called
mujaheddin in
Afghanistan so
many years ago.
The policy that
our Governments
have followed of
“my enemy’s
enemy is my
friend” has
proved to be
fatally flawed
everywhere that
it has been
tried, and it is
now being tried
all over again
in Somalia.
Many Somalis
will be watching
our debate this
evening—word is
out about it in
the Somali
community, and
it is being
shown on
Universal TV and
other Somali
channels. For
their sake, I
hope that the
Minister will
come clean about
the dreadful
problems that
exist, and I
also hope that
she will say
some words to
the Ethiopian
Government.
Mark Pritchard
(The Wrekin)
(Con): I
congratulate the
hon. Gentleman
on having
secured this
debate. I
apologise for
having arrived
late for it; I
was caught
somewhat
unawares as it
began early.
What is best for
Somalia and its
people is, of
course,
security. Does
the hon.
Gentleman accept
that the
Ethiopian
Government are
providing
security in
Somalia at
present, and
that they want
to withdraw from
Somalia at the
earliest
possible moment?
Will he also
join me in
encouraging the
United Nations,
the African
Union Mission in
Somalia—AMISOM—and
the African
Union to ensure
that troops are
put back into
Somalia in order
to give Somalis
that security,
which they need?
Ethiopian troops
want to return
to Addis Ababa.
Mr. Galloway: I
do not accept
that at all, and
it seems that I
know the
Ethiopian
Government
rather better
than the hon.
Gentleman does.
As I explained
before he came
in, I knew them
when they were
pro-Albanian
Maoist
guerrillas in
the Tigrean
People’s
Liberation
Front. I knew
all the
leaders—they are
now the
Government
Ministers—and I
know that they
have no
intention of
withdrawing from
Somalia unless
they are forced
to do so. They
want to occupy
Somalia because
they have been
paid to do so by
the Government
of the United
States and our
own Government.
The Ethiopian
Government are
doing a job for
what they
imagine to be
the western part
of the
international
community. I see
the Minister for
closing post
offices
laughing. His
constituency
contains many
Somalis, as does
mine, and I hope
that the camera
caught him
laughing.
The
Parliamentary
Under-Secretary
of State for
Transport (Jim
Fitzpatrick): I
apologise for
intervening on
the hon.
Gentleman, but I
must point out
that I did not
laugh at
anything that he
has been saying
so far.
Mr. Galloway: I
shall not go
further down
that track.
Perhaps the
camera caught
the
verisimilitude.
The truth is
that the
Ethiopian
Government are
carrying out a
service for the
people who give
them weapons,
for the people
who give them
money and for
the people who
give them
diplomatic and
political
support. They
are having a
beano in the
Ethiopian
embassy next
week. Perhaps
the hon. Member
for The Wrekin
(Mark Pritchard)
will go to it;
he will
certainly get an
invitation in
the post
following his
intervention.
The Ethiopian
Government are
having a beano
in the Ethiopian
embassy in
London to
celebrate the
17th anniversary
of their coming
to power, and it
is going to be a
very grand
event.
That event comes
at a time when
the Ethiopian
Government’s own
people are
starving to
death. Their
children are
starving to
death—120,000
children have a
month to
live—they are
invading and
occupying their
neighbouring
countries and
nobody says boo
about it. In
fact, far from
saying boo,
people are
saying, “Here’s
some more
military and
financial aid to
do it.” That is
because the
Government of
President Bush,
who are utterly
discredited and
on their way
out, with
virtually
nowhere to go
except Downing
street on Sunday
for one last
photo call,
regard the
defeat of the
former Islamic
Government in
Somalia as part
of their war on
terror.
That is what
this is all
about. Ethiopia
is playing the
role of hammer
in the horn of
Africa for the
policy of the
United States
and its war on
terror. That is
what Ethiopia is
doing, so it
will not
withdraw until a
new American
Government,
hopefully with a
Kenyan-affiliated
President, tell
them that
actually this
policy is deeply
flawed. The
puppet regime of
British citizens
imposed on
Somalia by the
Ethiopian
invasion would
not last five
minutes if the
Ethiopian forces
withdrew—that
regime would
have to withdraw
with them. So,
any Government
who come to
power in Somalia
in the future
will be filled
with hatred of
Britain and the
United States.
That is the
problem that we
keep making
everywhere; we
intervene either
to prop up
tyrants or to
support tyrants
because we do
not like the
tyrants that
they are
fighting
against, and we
generate still
more problems
for ourselves.
We wonder why
that is, and we
agonisingly
debate
anti-terrorism
laws. We wonder
why so many
people in the
Muslim world
want to hurt us.
We wonder why so
many young
people in the
Muslim world are
so bitter and
angry about us
that they want
to hurt us. Is
it any wonder?
Can it be any
wonder to any
sane person? I
beg the
Under-Secretary
of State for
Foreign and
Commonwealth
Affairs to
believe me when
I say that it is
because of the
kinds of
policies that I
have described.
I talk to
Somalis all the
time, and I know
that the rage
the Somali
community both
in Britain and
around the world
feels about
Britain and
America’s role
in their country
generates
terrorists. As
the right hon.
Member for North
Antrim (Rev. Ian
Paisley), who
saved the
Government’s
bacon earlier
this evening, is
in his place and
as we spent so
many hours
discussing
anti-terrorism,
let me spell it
out: we are
making new
terrorists in
Britain with our
policy towards
Somalia, with
our double
standards and
with our
hypocrisy.
Mark Pritchard:
While the
Government of
Ethiopia are not
perfect—indeed,
there are
Governments
closer to home
who are not
perfect—it is
right that human
rights abuses by
the Somali
security
services are
fully
investigated.
Nevertheless,
does the hon.
Gentleman accept
that if
Ethiopian troops
withdrew, it
would create a
security vacuum
in which
terrorist
groups,
including
al-Qaeda, would
create mayhem in
the horn of
Africa, which is
a key strategic
location, and
that would come
back to haunt
us?
Mr. Galloway: I
said in this
House when it
was recalled a
few days after
the atrocity of
9/11 that if we
handled it the
wrong way we
would make
10,000 new bin
Ladens. We have
handled it the
wrong way, and
we have made
10,000 new bin
Ladens. The
problem of
al-Qaeda in
Somalia has been
made worse by
the western
intervention and
the Ethiopian
invasion. Far
more people have
been recruited
to a narrow,
fundamentalist,
separatist,
violent Islamism
by our policy
than ever would
have been if
that policy had
never been
formed.
The hon.
Gentleman
obviously has
not read the
Amnesty
International
document. The
Ethiopian forces
are not
providing
security: they
are providing
mass murder and
terror in
occupied
Somalia. The
refugee camps
are full with 2
million people.
No one can walk
on the streets
of Mogadishu.
Channel 4’s
reporters were
almost killed
making their
programme. Some
of the team on
the same vehicle
with them were
shot dead live
on television—
Mark Pritchard:
By Somalis.
Mr. Galloway: I
do not know if
they were shot
by Somalis or
Ethiopians. The
point is that
the country has
been plunged
into utter
lawlessness, and
to pretend that
the Ethiopian
Government are
providing
security is
completely
ridiculous. The
words Somalia
and security
should not even
be mentioned in
the same
sentence.
There may be a
need for African
Union forces or
Arab League
forces. This
conflict will go
on and I hope
that the
Minister will
not claim that
the deal reached
this week is any
kind of solution
to the problem.
The people who
are doing the
fighting are not
involved in the
deal. It is like
a peace process
in the north of
Ireland that
excluded the
people who were
doing the
fighting. That
is what has
happened in
relation to
Somalia in the
past few days.
I am grateful
for the extra
time that I had
for this debate,
and I apologise
for my churlish
point of order,
which turned out
to be entirely
misconceived. I
hope for some
answers from the
Minister this
evening.
The
Parliamentary
Under-Secretary
of State for
Foreign and
Commonwealth
Affairs (Meg
Munn): I welcome
the opportunity
to reply to the
hon. Member for
Bethnal Green
and Bow (Mr.
Galloway) in
this debate. I
see this as an
excellent chance
to highlight how
the Foreign and
Commonwealth
Office seeks to
address a number
of issues
relating to
Somalia.
As my noble
Friend Lord
Malloch-Brown,
the Minister for
Africa, said in
his statement
this afternoon,
we congratulate
the Somali
transitional
federal
Government and
the Alliance for
the
Re-Liberation of
Somalia on
reaching
agreement on the
cessation of
violence. That
agreement was
signed by both
parties in
Djibouti on
Monday and
witnessed by
members of the
international
community. I
wish to thank
the UN
Secretary-General’s
special
representative,
Ahmedou Ould
Abdallah, on his
continued
efforts to
mediate in the
talks between
the parties
which resulted
in the
agreement. This
is a positive
step and we look
forward to all
parties
fulfilling their
commitment to
cease armed
confrontation.
We are committed
to working with
the UN to
support this
process.
Human rights
issues in
Somalia are
longstanding and
complex. They
cannot be
attributed to
any one cause,
and there are no
easy or obvious
solutions.
Somalia is not
like other
countries.
Serious
violence, lack
of governance
structures and
the
deteriorating
humanitarian
situation have
been ongoing for
17 years. Many
in Somali
society have
been brutalised
by years of
violence. It is
therefore often
individuals, not
answerable to
any particular
group or
commander, who
carry out abuses
on their own
initiative. That
makes it even
more difficult
to prevent
further abuses
and to bring
those
responsible to
justice.
Given that
complexity and
the insecurity
in Somalia,
there is little
opportunity to
monitor the
situation
reliably or
gather and
verify facts or
allegations.
Reporting is
often biased and
may be
exaggerated to
exert influence
on the
international
community. The
only sustainable
way to address
human rights in
the long term is
to engage in
effective state
building,
concentrating on
developing
institutions,
parliamentary
accountability,
an inclusive
security sector
and delivery of
basic services.
Short-term fixes
that do not
focus on state
building will
mean we return
to the issue
year after year,
prolonging the
suffering of the
Somali people.
Reports of
incidents and
accusations of
human rights
abuses by
Ethiopian troops
are difficult to
corroborate and
have been
categorically
denied by the
Ethiopian
Government.
Ethiopian troops
in Somalia are
carrying out a
role that
security
providers in
Somalia do not
have the
capacity for.
Many critics
forget that
fighting between
militias went on
for 15 years
before Ethiopia
intervened, at
the invitation
of Somalia’s
transitional
federal
Government.
African Union
member nations
have not yet
committed to
contributing
sufficient
troops to allow
for full
deployment of
the African
Union mission in
Somalia, which
currently has
only 2,400 of
the 8,000 troops
mandated.
Further planning
for a possible
UN mission was
called for by UN
Security Council
resolution 1814,
although that is
unlikely to be
mandated soon.
Evidence from
other Ethiopian
peacekeeping
deployments
indicates that
they make a
positive
contribution to
missions.
Ethiopian troops
are likely to
form the largest
contingent of
the UN-African
Union mission in
Darfur.
We regularly
engage with
human rights
organisations,
listen to their
views and
appreciate their
efforts to
gather
information and
evidence on
human rights. We
and they fully
acknowledge that
allegations of
abuse are made
against all
parties to the
conflict in
Somalia. We
sponsored an
Arria meeting at
the United
Nations in New
York on 31 March
to enable
Governments and
the
non-governmental
organisation
community freely
to discuss human
rights and
humanitarian
issues and to
exchange views
on how to
achieve progress
in Somalia.
The hon. Member
for Bethnal
Green and Bow
might be
interested to
know that in
response to a
question from my
hon. Friend the
Member for
Stroud (Mr.
Drew), I said:
“We unreservedly
condemn all
proven incidents
of human rights
abuse and expect
those
responsible to
face justice.”—[
Official Report,
3 June 2008;
Vol. 476, c.
832W.]
My noble Friend
the Minister for
Africa, Lord
Malloch-Brown,
raised the issue
of human rights
in Somalia with
the Ethiopian
Prime Minister
in late January
2008. Our
ambassador to
Ethiopia
regularly raises
the issue of
respect for
human rights in
Somalia at
senior levels of
the Ethiopian
Government.
Foreign and
Commonwealth
Office officials
in London and at
the UN have also
raised the issue
with their
Ethiopian
counterparts.
Ethiopia has
told us that it
intends to
withdraw from
Somalia and that
it has reduced
force numbers by
more than half
since late
February 2007.
The Ethiopian
Government are
extremely
positive about
the newly signed
peace agreement,
which includes a
strategy for
their withdrawal
from Somalia.
Until Ethiopia
withdraws its
troops
completely, we
urge them to use
only appropriate
force, adhere to
international
humanitarian law
and respect
human rights.
However, for
Ethiopia to
withdraw from
Somalia before
an effective
alternative
force has been
established
would risk
creating a
dangerous
security vacuum.
Somalis would
suffer the most
from such a
development.
The UK is a
leading
contributor to
world efforts to
rebuild the
Somali state. We
support the
efforts of the
UN Secretary
General’s
special
representative
for Somalia to
engage with
civil society
and to help
bring about
social and
political
reconciliation
that will lead
to greater
respect for
human rights and
religious
freedoms for all
Somalis. Through
helping to shape
UN Security
Council policy,
and our
membership of
the EU and the
international
contact group,
we press for
greater focus on
human rights in
Somalia. We
asked the UN to
enhance its
capacity to
monitor and
report on the
human rights
situation in
Somalia and 11
Jun 2008 :
Column 434
Council
resolution 1814,
unanimously
adopted on 15
May, and the EU
General Assembly
and External
Relations
Council
conclusions,
adopted on 26
May, support the
Office of the
High
Commissioner for
Human Rights,
including the
independent
expert for
Somalia, and
encourage them
to undertake a
fact-finding and
assessment
mission to
Somalia to
address the
human rights
situation.
We co-chair the
donors group and
are the second
largest
bilateral
humanitarian and
development
donor. We are
also the second
largest
bilateral donor,
after the US,
for the African
Union mission to
Somalia. We are
a key donor to
the UN
Development
Programme effort
to develop a
full justice
system,
including
improving the
police force and
the judiciary
and penal
systems to an
internationally
acceptable
standard. I
understand that
the hon.
Gentleman
thought that
that issue was a
matter for the
Department for
International
Development, but
I can confirm
that it is a
policy area of
the Foreign and
Commonwealth
Office.
We value human
rights highly.
No other states
are as active as
the UK on human
rights issues in
Somalia. We urge
other states to
join our efforts
and encourage
international
human rights
organisations to
concentrate
their advocacy
activities on
pressing other
less active
states for
support, too.
Question put and
agreed to.
Adjourned
accordingly at
twenty-five
minutes past
Seven o’clock.
